Yeshiva Sanity: Tuition Across the River

Monday, June 4, 2012

Tuition Across the River

As much as we like to complain about our tuitions, right across the river SAR Academy is actually charging much more. And it's only 4 minutes from Teaneck if you happen to be a Spine Tailed Swift Bird. Their website still has the current years tuition on it but nearby Westchester Day School the Goldbergs would be paying $56,750 next year for tuition for their 3 kids, higher than any BC YDS including Solomon Schechter.

Understandably some New York parents have expressed interest in He'atid. Maybe the BC schools don't have to fear He'atid's growth so much since they will be pulling students from other neighborhoods as well & not just taking their students.

Comments (21)

Logging you in...

Dashboard | Edit profile | Logout

Logged in as

+3 Vote up Vote down

remom · 668 weeks ago

Yes, the costs listed at any and all JDS is very high but again, as I posted a few months ago on another one of Yeshiva Sanity postings - if people are experiencing difficulty paying Day School tuition for elementary and high school, how will these same families cover the cost of college tuition? What is the plan? Does the rabbinate truly recognize how challenging the economic reality has become, and that it's continuing deterioration is placing the future of Day School paying families at risk financially? I no longer believe this dire situation is limited to families of teachers and social workers but extends to lawyers and doctors and (believe it or not) people working in IT and finance. Many families have managed until now with "sponsors" who've footed the bills (either in whole or in part) for Day School tuition and Summer Camps but now even the "sponsors" (aka grandparents, a rich uncle, etc...) are beginning to pull back because their own finances are at risk as well. Where does all this end? Where is the Rabbinate? When families place their houses under second mortgages in a depressed economy to cover JDS and JD Camp tuitions and Bar and Bat Mitzvahs and such, how can this end anything but very very badly?

+2 Vote up Vote down

Public or Charter · 668 weeks ago

Remom - you are right. Where are the rabbis? Well look around Bergenfield or Teaneck? 75% + of the rabbis teach at YU, or one the day schools / HS in the area. Some are admins at these schools. Why would they cut off their 2nd salary?

People need to realize the catastrophe happening to the financial landscape of the averarge modern ortho Jew and figure out how to react on their own. I know many going to various charters, public school and some even home schooling. These may not be popular today, but the numbers doing it have increased steadily each year for 5+ years now and the trend is going to continue, in my opinion.

+2 Vote up Vote down

remom · 668 weeks ago

My concern is that people are digging themselves into a financial hole by taking out second mortgages on their homes and spending future savings on tuition today that leave them with no possibility of financial backup in the future. Can't the community Rabbeim stand up and say something along the lines of ..."If paying JDS tuition is going to require you (families) to put yourselves into financial peril than it is acceptable to attend your local public school or charter and we (the Rabbeim) will find a way to help or organize supplemental Jewish education". Meaning, should one sell one's eggs to pay for JDS? Should one spend all of one's college savings towards JDS tuition? Should I sell my eggs? A kidney? Has a Rabbi paskened on where one draws the line?

0 Vote up Vote down

Not a chump · 668 weeks ago

Chas veshalom. Any general heter to attend public school, especially if it came with a rabbincally sanctioned program for supplemental Jewish education, would lead to a stampede out of todays' day schools. Any school with more than 20% of its students on financial aid (virtually all of them) would see enrollment drop in ways that would endanger the schools' existence. Would you want that on your head? Do you think any rabbi would countenance such things?

Any family with such significant financial problems should go to their rabbi and ask the shailah. The trade off between the financial burden of JDS and the diminution of Jewish knowledge / social risks from non-Jewish options is a real halachic issue. The poskim in our communities need to address the challenge - but like all cost/benefit issues, it needs to be done on a case-by-case basis.

0 Vote up Vote down

realist · 668 weeks ago

Good posts, Although I don't agree with the conclusion. Skyrocketing tuition is now a major issue in the Jewish community, perhaps the biggest one. I do not believe a mass exodus to public school is the answer. I do believe that this entire system needs to be reviewed in order to find an overall comprehensive solution.

1 reply · active 668 weeks ago

0 Vote up Vote down

Not a chump · 668 weeks ago

And what types of solutions to you forsee?

+2 Vote up Vote down

remom · 668 weeks ago

Realist - do you mean that another conference should be held to discuss more effective "development" approaches? The cost of educating a child at a top public school is in the high teens to mid twenties (thousands). This leads me to believe that the tuition at JDS is not unrealistic as it compares with other schools. The issue is that we are all paying real estate taxes and have multiple children to educate and that to maintain the expense (however necessary) of JDS tuition over a period of at least 12 years for multiple children and then have the funds to pay for college is unrealistic - even for a family earning 200K or even 300K. The money just isn't there. So if the answer isn't a mass exodus to (good) public schools - then what could possibly be the answer?

0 Vote up Vote down

realist · 668 weeks ago

Thank you for your responses. What I meant was, we need a communal solution to the problem. In other words, have the rabbis and community leaders come up with an overall tuition solution. Perhaps that means less schools. Perhaps that means a sliding tuition scale based on income. Perhaps it means recc to the community that our tzedakah dollars be channeled to a communal fund that specifically aids day schools in order to minize the burden of the parents. Personally, my kids are out of day school, and I am not rich, but I would contribute to such a fund.

In any case, we need to have the leaders sit down and address this issue, which is something that is just talked about on blogs and shabbos tables.

1 reply · active 668 weeks ago

+1 Vote up Vote down

Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 668 weeks ago

Realist, they have done exactly what your last suggestion was. Its called NNJKIDS and every Rabbi in the RCBC pushed for it at their respective pulpits. Its taken a few hundred off each students tuition for the past 2 years. Of course that doesn't solve the crises but just makes a small dent. The more we all contribute the more of a dent it will make.

Now pony up as you promised!
-YD

0 Vote up Vote down

PUBLIC · 668 weeks ago

Comparing cost per pupil at yeshiva to public school is not appropriate. If one is at YNJ and has a child in the "transition" program, their tuition statement is way different. Say one on premises there is attending Sinai. Once again, that is not a YNJ average tuition. When you turn to the PUBLIC SCHOOL, special ed, ESL and all other unique situations are part of that same average - including some students that are costing the district 50-150k per child!!!

Furthermore, please take a tour of the facilities and listing of clubs, sports and programs at the schools, HS and below in your district. There are costs to having marching bands, chorus, drama, cheer leading, football and many other programs that are simply not part of the day to day program at Yeshiva. Now, some may say, there is limudei kodesh. Yes, that is not available at the public school - but Spanish, Latin, health, "film and literature", robotics and engineering, etc. are all part of the core curriculum or options at the PS.

The fact that tuition is a "wash" in comparison is amazing, especially considering that this greater staff program pays greater salary and benefits in comparison to yeshiva staff and teachers.

Rabbis in town are not going to put their 2nd income out of business or their wives salary in jeopardy.

0 Vote up Vote down

Not a chump · 668 weeks ago

NNJKIDS is definitely a good thing, but if the commentary on this blog, its predecessor, and the chatter in my community are a fair sample set, I think it is probably a band-aid on gaping wound. Fewer schools might help moderate some adminstrative costs, but if the baseline for schooling is $20k/kid, it just won't be enough. Moreover, if the financial picture is truly so bleak that middle-of-the-pack families are taking out debt to pay for school, a sustainable solution may mean going back to the 1950s/1960s with many religious kids in public school and the establishment of Talmud Torah afterschools.

YD - your Goldberg family standard is great. Any chance you can gather the data to compare Generic JDS budgets - Tuition/Donation/NNJKids etc for revenues - teachers/admins/peripherals/scholarship etc for costs? I would be happy to help compile.

0 Vote up Vote down

Not a chump response · 668 weeks ago

Not A Chump: You would be surprised. There are kippot wearing and and religious kids attending public school throughout the local area at all levels - from K - 12th grade. I know many of them. I would not say it to be hundreds, but several dozen in Teaneck alone and I know some in other areas nearby.

0 Vote up Vote down

remom · 668 weeks ago

All of these ideas and comments are great but there is never any mention of college tuition. Who and how will our community afford COLLEGE for our JDS graduates?

+1 Vote up Vote down

Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 668 weeks ago

remom,

If parents can't afford it the students can work & take out loans like most Americans. & they don't all need to go to private colleges.

+1 Vote up Vote down

Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 668 weeks ago

Not a Chump response,

In Teaneck there are very, very few. There are Solomon Schechter grads in TPS but hardly any from Orthodox schools. There are some who have special needs that the Yeshivas can't provide but as far as ones that choose to go to public schools you can probably count them on one hand.

+1 Vote up Vote down

Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 668 weeks ago

Not a Chump,

I don't have any of that data. I have the tuition schedules for most schools (see the links on the side) but not the budgets. As far as I know only Yavneh gave out any info about the budgets. Haven't heard a good reason why they are kept secret though.

0 Vote up Vote down

remom · 668 weeks ago

But even state schools are in the 25K-30K per year inclusive of all expenses (books, board, tuition, travel).... How can one make the assumption that if families in our community are already going into greater debt (I would say Dangerous Debt) by using their home for an equity loan for ELEMENTARY AND HIGH SCHOOL - how in the world can our community assume that these same parents can aid their children in higher education which is an absolute necessity. So at the end of the college years, the parents of said children will be in oodles of debt and the graduates will be in tremendous debt and then how exactly can our communities foster and aid in enabling the JDS and JCC and Jewish Day Camps, etc.... This is all toppling down very quickly and rather than the Rabbis digging their heads in the sand, I think they ought to address these issues by stating that there are LIMITS to what one can be expected to do to come up with tuition.

If having the necessary money for tuition means that highschool kids or even middle schoolers done attend Jewish Day Camp and work as summer helpers or find jobs or internships or something - of course, that is fine and to be expected. But there are people going into debt for not just JDS tuition but also for Jewish camps (sleep aways) and this I don't understand.

0 Vote up Vote down

Mark · 668 weeks ago

I think that in addition to the Goldbergs with 3 kids, you also need the Cohens with 4 kids. That's because it seems to me that for most people, by the time they become a chump (>$200k income), they usually have 4 kids.

0 Vote up Vote down

Not a chump · 668 weeks ago

Public -
I am not advocating for the system to collapse, I am just saying that if the financial reality as discussed on this and related blogs is truly as dire as people describe, then the system cannot stay afloat, period. Broadly, the charedi world has chosen to focus all its resources on jewish life, seek as much government support as possible, and live what most suburban MO folks would consider a lower standard of living - and much much more modest bar mitzvah events to say the least. Of course, this is a gross generalization and it goes with lots of other choices in life, but I raise it because our MO community might need to be asking itself about our choices and, for parents with limited resources, if a lower standard of living is a trade-off worth making to preserve our children's jewish education as is.

Remom - in-state tuition for 2011-2012 at SUNY Albany is $17,718 vs out-of-state who pay $26,128. http://www.albany.edu/undergraduate_bulletin/cost...

0 Vote up Vote down

remom · 668 weeks ago

Those are today's costs - where do you think those numbers will be in the next 5 to 8 years? And those numbers don't reflect board, travel expenses, books, fees, etc...

But that is not the point. The big elephant in the room is that all the tuition focus is on the current numbers and doesn't address the more critical issues of how one can manage today's AND TOMORROW's (college) costs - this is the REAL issue and I never hear anyone talk about it. I guess the question is, if a family has been able to save (hypothetically) 80K per child towards college, can this money be tapped by scholarship committees at JDS for elementary and high school tuition?

0 Vote up Vote down

Guest · 662 weeks ago

I have 5 children, 2 in College (CUNY and Touro), 2 in High School, and 1 in elementary school.
Total Tuition Bill for 2012-13: $80,000, and that is $9,000 less than full only due to the one and only school that has a decent policy of taking in a family's total tuition obligation and adjusting their tuition accordingly, with no hassles, phone calls, meetings, etc., just a form and 1040s (MTA).

Yes, this is what you all have to look forward to, and yes, it is unsustainable and squeezes every last $ of my disposable income year after year after year.

Should either myself or my wife find ourselves unemployed, forget tuition, due to the inability to save any money, we would be in immediate dire straits.

Post a new comment

Comment as a Guest, or login:

Share on Facebook

Connected as (Logout)

Email (optional)

Not displayed publicly.

Submit Comment

Subscribe to

Comments by IntenseDebate