Yeshiva Sanity: Shmoozing With Zach & Rabbi Sommer

Friday, August 2, 2013

Shmoozing With Zach & Rabbi Sommer

I've been having an interesting conversation online about tuition and Yeshiva Day Schools with 2 former MTA teachers - Zach Abramowitz and Rabbi Pesach Sommer. Here's the link:

http://www.replyall.me/forward-momentum/talking-with-yeshiva-dad-founder-of-the-yeshiva-sanity-blog/

Check for updates soon. Shabbat Shalom,

YD

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Joe · 608 weeks ago

"They should keep the "qualified tuition" where tuition is pad pre-tax from any school (not just the one where the teacher works) since that doesn't cost the schools anything and is apparently legal."

Simply not true. It is 100% illegal. That's why many schools have stopped this practice in recent years. Those that haven't are playing with fire. Besides the message it sends from schools that are supposed to be in the business of providing a Torah education.

5 replies · active 259 weeks ago

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IDF · 608 weeks ago

YD- I just read your post and the email conversation and want to clarify something. You attribute the change among schools attitudes towards raising tuition to the "groundswell" of people starting to speak up. That is not really accurate. The change began at Yavneh when we were the first school to LOWER tuition in Bergen County in what was likely the first decrease in modern history among Yeshivas. And why did that happen? It happened because I fought tooth and nail for a year to make this happen while I was on the Yavneh board. I made it clear to everyone that I was not going to stop fighting for the cause until we not only stopped raising but until it was lowered. And while I was told over and over that it simply was impossible, I fought until it became reality. Anyone in the know who was on the board at the time can verify I was the driving force behind this and I have all the emails to verify this was the case.

I read your blog on occasion and the thing that gets me is everyone rants on the blog and at shabbos tables yet no one seems to do anything that matters. What do I mean by that? To me, the solution to the crisis is quite simple. We are all "customers" of the Yeshivas yet in this case, the "vendor" is driving the market. Where else besides a monopoly situation does a vendor have the ability to create a price point and the customer just pays? Imagine if there was one kosher pizza store in all of bergen county- they could charge 5 dollars a slice and we would have to choose to buy it or not. But since there are many places to buy pizza, no single store could get away with that. And if they all went to 5 dollars a slice, we would then choose to stop buying it or buy it as we wanted. And i suspect the "customers" here would tell the stores to "shove it" and stores would begin to close due to a lack of business.

So why does that same logic not apply to a yeshiva. If people really are fed up, then why don't the parents of the schools come together and all send back their yearly registration packets with no check inside and instead a note that says "no thank you, not going to pay that much any longer". Just imagine if all the families in the schools did that- the school is left with the choice of either throwing all the families out of the school (in which case they have a wonderful school with ZERO kids and ZERO income) or they are forced to listen to their customer and adapt to what the CUSTOMER WANTS.

I suspect that day will never come and the schools will dictate the market but if people really spoke up with the checkbooks, the schools would be forced to change. As a side note, I resigned from the Yavneh board last year when I realized I was fighting for a cause that was going no where simply because it seems that the only "speaking up" anyone does is on this blog and in shul. It's an awful shame because this community has the power to make real changes that are needed.

2 replies · active 608 weeks ago

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IDF · 608 weeks ago

YD- in terms of my comment about fighting to keep tuition down, I will say i was the only board member at the time that was fighting for it- again, I have all the emails to prove my statement. I then gathered support of other board members and got the change made. But my comment is that while all others whine and rant on blogs and "push" for change, I would argue they are doing nothing because the schools dont care one bit about blogs- they know they exist and know the potential is there for the parents to come together but to date nothing has happened so why should they care?

In terms of who I am, its truly not hard to figure that out- how many Yavneh board members have resigned in the past few years?

In terms of Heatid and WTA, yes and no. Sure, Heatid opened up but the model isnt sustainable. Not even close. It costs a few million dollars to run a pre-school last year. So in my opinion they proved the model doesnt work. Let them get to cash flow even on 9k tuition and have a real building and then I will believe. I hope and pray they do bc then we all benefit but to me its a lot of smoke and mirrors. And besides, even if they have 75 kids a year, that doesn't fix the issue because that means each legacy school loses 12-15 kids per year. That won't make or break a school or cause a change. What will is if and when parents of each school speak up with their wallets to their current school.

2 replies · active 608 weeks ago

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IDF · 608 weeks ago

keep it real- no one "listens" bc no one really spoke up! when we had our open board meetings at Yavneh where anyone could come and speak, there were 2 or 3 non-board members that showed up. when the board sees that, it shows them their customers dont care and they can do as they please. if people really want a change then make it happen, dont just rant on blogs.

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Charles · 608 weeks ago

IDF - are you kidding me? So you got Yavneh to reduce tuition from $16k by $100. Whoopdy-doo! Everyone knows that GD is responsible for YNJ keeping tuition flat 4 of the past 5 years and then he went and started HeAtid. That's where the change came from.

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Will · 608 weeks ago

IDF - didn't Yavneh lower their tuition by $100? As a statement it is nice. But as a fix for the tuition crisis - really?
He'atid - "it costs a few million dollars to run a preschool"- Do you really think that is an accurate statement? Or is the few million or whatever it is the school's one time start up costs? BTW - what personal knowledge do you have of the He'atid budget? The founder of AJE came out and said the school will break even - when he really had no need to do so. What information do you have that what Mr. Nordlicht said is incorrect?

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IDF · 608 weeks ago

Charles- when did YNJ make that move? AFTER yavneh made the cut.

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keep it real. · 608 weeks ago

Charles and IDF: The historical facts are as follows: YNJ was the first school to freese tuition and keep it from going higher, Yavneh was the first to make a cut ($100).

To get on the Yvneh Board you have to know someone or have money, it as simple as that. The Yavneh Board is stacked by people they want on the Board.

Further, your plan for 400 families to ban together is nice, but unrealistic, how can that happen? come on!

Finally, isn't HeAtid just that ? families are banning together and saying we will not pay that much anymore.

No one here can prove yet blended learning works, YET no one can disprove it. BUT, what is very telling is that HeAtid had an unbelievable retention rate after just one year. Noam had a good one as well, but not nearly as good as HeAtid, that says a lot.

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IDF · 608 weeks ago

keep it real- i dont know of the exact dates of who announced what and when but i am fairly certain our reduction was a done deal first and somehow got leaked and then YNJ made the announcement.

also incorrect on how to get on the board. if you want to work and make a difference, they want you. but again, who cares about the "board". that is my point all along. people rant on blogs and do nothing more so we all deserve the beating we are taking.

so 400 families cant join together but millions in egypt can to overthrow a gov't? come on to you! and your attitude is exactly why they schools and the winthrops can do as they please- bc they see how pathetic people are. all they can do is whine in shul and on blogs.

1 reply · active 608 weeks ago

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End Welfare · 608 weeks ago

I know I will take heat for this comment but mark my words: GD will do down in the books as the savior of modern orthodoxy by making modern orthodoxy more affordable to the masses. What legacy school apologist, Rabbi, or Winthrop can make that claim???

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JS_ · 608 weeks ago

IDF,

I think your comparison to pizza in inaccurate. The problem here is that people feel compelled either out of religious devotion, fear, social pressure, or whatever other of the myriad reasons to buy the "pizza." Sending their children to a non-yeshiva is simply not an option. Therefore, it's a vendor driven market.

In fact, you do see this same effect with kosher food - but not in the way you described it. Maybe the pizza stores can't charge $5 a slice, but they can charge an awful lot of money for pretty crummy pizza as compared to the non-kosher world. Same with kosher meat. You won't pay $10/pound for drumsticks, but you'll pay around 3-5 times as much as those buying non-kosher chicken do.

Same with the yeshivas. They can't (yet) charge $25k/year for kindergarten in Bergen County - but they can do that for high school (and, in fact, they can charge nearly that at SAR). But, they can all charge around $15k for grade school. It's a vendor driven market with the only control being how much the vendors think they can squeeze before people decide they will simply forgo meat, pizza, yeshiva, etc. and accept the diminished diet or social/religious standing as the case may be.

Now, don't get me wrong. There's a lot more that goes into setting a price than how much you think you can push your customers, but this is nonetheless a real issue.

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Guest1 · 608 weeks ago

Let's keep it real. The only thing that institutions care about is money. The reality is that it takes money to make the world go around. Anyone who gets in the rich people's way or has a different opinion gets pushed aside.

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Tom · 608 weeks ago

Anyone want to critique this drivel? I don't have the time.
www.jstandard.com/content/item/jewish_high_school...

2 replies · active 607 weeks ago

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keep it real. · 608 weeks ago

There is so much to critique, I would not even know where to begin. I will just like to highlight the biggest issue I have:

Edelman writes: Irrespective of the value of a student survey — and there is certainly merit in hearing what students think about their schools — is it wise to determine curriculum standards or derive educational quality solely based on teenagers’ impressions? Indeed, the “general conclusions” offered by this survey are far from remarkable. For example, one rather unsurprising conclusion is that “students hate tests and think they are useless.”

This is such a dumb statement. No one ever said that we should "derive educational quality SOLELY based on teenagers’ impressions? Distenfeld himself said that we will now move to the next phase which is focus groups where we listen to parents. I know that they will also work with experts and educators. These are just some of the components in constructing a curriculum. Why would he say something that is so blatantly false and baseless???

And, since when do schools not listen to students in constructing curriculum? is that not part of the background behind Project Based Learning ? Which all of our legacy schools love to go on and on about ?

Further, on this point, Frisch is the most guilty of basing teaching and testing on what student want. They gave a 10th grade English final on twitter largely because for two days before hand the teacher came to realize that that was what the students wanted.

I could go on, but that is my biggest issue with the article.

7 replies · active 607 weeks ago

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Justin · 608 weeks ago

"But calling for the creation of yet another high school based on an untested financial model"

This is my favorite line. Yeah, a new financial model hasn't been tested, but we know that the existing model is an utter failure!

We should be encouraging Distenfeld and Kiderman. At least they are trying something. We know that the existing financial model doesn't work.

And as for the quality, as a parent of a multiple graduates from TABC and Maayanot, the only people who think they are high quality are those that are nogeah b'davar - people like Edelman whose wife works in one of them.

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Avi Greengart · 608 weeks ago

The problem is simple: people can't afford today's high prices. But you can't help them by 1. fiddling with existing schools or by 2. opening a low cost school with larger class sizes and fewer amenities - you need something that promises to be better in some way.

1. Tuition is crushing many of our families, but there's no way to fix the problem at legacy schools - there just isn't any obvious waste in the system (other than multiple layers of administrators, but what are you going to do, ask the principal to fire the lot of them and give himself more work? Not gonna happen. Plus, if you cut something or someone that a major donor likes, you've just made fundraising - and board meetings with those donors - much more difficult). Keeping tuition flat or cutting it by $100 is an incredibly difficult achievement, but doesn't roll back the enormous rise in tuition vs. inflation from before. All you're doing is keeping it from getting worse. Again, tough to do - and kudos to Yavneh and YNJ for doing it, but this helps people tread water, which would be fine if they weren't already drowning. It's not enough.

2. You can't help them by opening a cheaper school, either. If you frame the issue as financial, people are afraid that there will be a social stigma - who wants to send their kids to a "cheap" school? (What's astonishing is that social pressures seem to trump financial and marital pressures. Just take out another loan! Save for retirement "...later." Take a Xanax.) However, if you frame the issue as educational, that removes the stigma from the lower cost. Who doesn't want to send their kid to a school that better prepares them for today's challenges/inspires a love of yiddishkeit/[insert third thing here]? And, let's be honest - is there anyone who truly thinks our schools are perfect? Of course not. So all you really need is some way to quantify what issues need to be addressed, like, say, a survey, and, voila! you can now promise to fix those problems with your low cost model. Will it work? We don't know. But it might. What we do know is that the current system isn't working for a lot of people, and this is a better option than public school, which is the real alternative. Under the circumstances, trying something new is the best course of action.

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Harry · 607 weeks ago

Lots of talk on Shabbos about this. It's going to be a very interesting few months in Bergen County!

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Harry · 607 weeks ago

Why do my comments keep on getting deleted?

1 reply · active 607 weeks ago

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Been there Done that · 607 weeks ago

I think Yehiva Heatid is right; it just doesn't go far enough. He should poll the pre-schoolers. I hear they want all recess and lunch and no learning.GD should should start building prisons based on what the prisoners want. After that, he can start advising doctors to make recc not on their medical knowledge, but on what the patients want. Perhaps he then segway into law and have lawyers just do what the clients want and not use their legal expertise.

Finally, we change the Torah to the areas that people want or don't want. People only want to daven 3 times a week? No problem. People don't want to give charity, so lets eliminate it. Finally, there are lots of people that would like to steal. Let's just make it legal.

GD's ideas are a great example of the inmates running the isylum.

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antigone2 22p · 607 weeks ago

PBL is not about student desires: it involves a project created by a teacher. A student may or may not be interested in the subject matter of that course. The philosophy behind project based learning has to do with student learning, not interest, and educators spend a lot of time evaluating the best practices to promote student learning. Some students hate projects and prefer tests, by the way, as a project may and often does require more active participation on the part of the student. The deception in the new proposal for the schools was in the suggestion that all of our existing yeshiva high schools are places with lecturing teachers, desks in rows, and a uniform philosophy of teaching. Nothing could be further from the truth, of course.

1 reply · active 607 weeks ago

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Objective · 607 weeks ago

I have no idea what a "Winthrop" is or what qualifications "GD" does or does not have, but find the level of discourse here to be quite sad. My impression is that existing schools are doing a fine job educating our kids, but unfortunately it comes at a high price tag in line with (if not short of) typical private schools. It seems specious to suggest that a new, cheaper school will do better, though I'm sure we would all like to be pleasantly surprised. What I find troubling is all the negative commentary about schools "bankrupting" the community. There have always been cheaper options in Brooklyn and Queens, where families continue to have 10 kids apiece, and no one is stopping people from starting a no frills school in more upscale neighborhoods like Teaneck. However, the bashing of the existing schools is distasteful, and the claims that a new school can do better educationally are presumptuous.

5 replies · active 607 weeks ago

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Justin · 607 weeks ago

And it seems like you want something that 50% of the population can't afford today and likely 90% of the population won't be able to afford in 10-15 years.

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reality · 607 weeks ago

this whole debate will be ridiculous in 10 yrs bc public school plus talmud torah will be the way of the future. yeshiva tuition is outragous and getting less and less affordable. the numbers applying for aid are multiplying at a much greater rate than donations.

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Justin · 607 weeks ago

Correct. But everybody has their head in the sand. They can knock Gershon all they want. Maybe his idea (whatever it is) will work, maybe it won't. But the status quo is suicide for the current crop of high schools.

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Steve · 607 weeks ago

I think a lot of you should never have moved to Teaneck. What did you expect, free tuition, no kosher food or shul dues?

1 reply · active 607 weeks ago

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Cindy · 607 weeks ago

I signed up for a focus group but have not heard anything. Anyone know what's going on?

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Husband · 607 weeks ago

My wife is a teacher at He'Atid. I've been reading this blog for a while and finally decided to post. I believe that we need more affordable options. But the way He'Atid is currently being run is terrible. Most teachers are unhappy and are already talking about leaving after this year. I hope that He'Atid board members are reading this and will do something.

1 reply · active 607 weeks ago

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Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 607 weeks ago

Husband,

Board members do read this blog. But i think you need to be a bit more specific if you want something to change. What exactly is your wife unhappy about?

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Unhappy Husband · 607 weeks ago

Please be specific? What is it that teachers are upset about? Hours? Salary? Not enough vacation days? Too many responsibilities? Does you wife think that teachers that left their post at legacies, to move to He'Atid, will have an easy time getting back into legacies if they were to leave He'Atid? How many teachers are thinking of leaving? Are they all thinking of leaving for the same reason?

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End Welfare · 607 weeks ago

Let us please remember anybody can post here pretending to be anybody they want. Because somebody says they are a husband of an unhappy Heatid teacher does not make it so. I could just as easily post a comment right now pretending to be a husband of an unhappy legacy school teacher. Let's take everything here with a grain of salt.

2 replies · active 607 weeks ago

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teaneck · 607 weeks ago

As of now there are 10 frum families planning on sending to the teaneck township montessori nursery program this year. I think there may be a spot or 2 left. Its a wonderful program for age 3-5. costs a fraction of what any of the jewish pre schools cost and the kids actually learn ($400 month for full day). They enter Kindgergarten reading a writing and knowing basic math, science and geography. I highly recommend checking out if looking for a low cost option. This will be my 3rd year sending and have been extremely happy.

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project ezrah. · 607 weeks ago

just received a letter from project ezrah stating that they have 94 families that they are currently helping with basic needs including tuition. If each of these families has 3 kids that need tuition assistance thats a ton of $. wonder how many of those 94 families are sending to he atid or jfs. It should be a requirement to send to a low cost option when taking tzedukkah.

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End Welfare · 607 weeks ago

"It should be a requirement to send to a low cost option when taking tzedukkah."

It should also be a requirement that you don't have cable tv. How many of these 94 families have cable tv?

1 reply · active 607 weeks ago

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Question · 607 weeks ago

Why is there any doubt that there are some dissatisfied teachers at He'Atid. In any school there will be some level of dissatisfaction on the part of employees and parents. The assertion that "most" teachers are unhappy and leaving is likely overstated but no more so than the hyperbole that others who monitor this blog on behalf of He'Atid have posted. I guess what goes around comes around.

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End Welfare · 607 weeks ago

"the hyperbole that others who monitor this blog on behalf of He'Atid have posted."

Please. I was told that a certain legacy school paid staff members to comment on the old blog and bash Heatid.

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Miri · 607 weeks ago

It's disgusting what the legacy schools did to try to sabatage HeAtid.

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Question · 607 weeks ago

End Welfare. Don't really believe that anyone is paid to post anything but perhaps if you guys at He'Atid paid teachers decently most of them wouldn't be planning to quit.

2 replies · active 605 weeks ago

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Joe · 607 weeks ago

Question: do you always talk out of your ass? Teachers at HeAtid are paid on par with the legacies.

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Steve · 607 weeks ago

"Please. I was told that a certain legacy school paid staff members to comment on the old blog and bash Heatid. Please. I was told that a certain legacy school paid staff members to comment on the old blog and bash Heatid. "

I heard the same thing about you. How much is GD paying you these days?

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remom · 607 weeks ago

I just don't understand why anyone would try to sabotage efforts to meet the needs of parents with income restrictions. So, let those parents sending their kids to the new less expensive lower cost options worry about whatever it is that is perceived won't be included in their childrens' educations. Why the fear of people trying new things? What is happening to our community? Why the need to bully each other? If someone has loads of resources, let them spend it as they wish. But for those who must watch their pennies, all options - Heatid, new charter schools, public school should be explored. The bullying quality of the conversation is what I find most troubling.

15 replies · active 607 weeks ago

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sick of the bullying · 607 weeks ago

remom - you are absolutely right - it's because the bullies are threatened that their own situations may change with other options, competition, etc. Any admin or teacher in a legacy school risks losing students due to new models and competition - therefore there may be empty seats, they may not be needed anymore, and the justification for so many admins in a shrinking school is tough. And...they may have to step up the plate in their own schools due to increased competition. For other parents who chose not to send to something new...they feel like idiots if others are getting the same if not better for thousands less, so there must be something wrong with the new and therefore they need to bash it...or they are concerned maybe their tuition will increase due to empty seats in the classroom..who knows... The bottom line is that people are only thinking about themselves. The admins/teachers don't pay full tuition (or any tuition in many cases) - so why should they support an affordable alternative - won't help them.... and full paying parents - maybe $6K per year/kid is not a savings they want or need....so no personal advantage to them... and scholarship parents who choose to stay getting charity in their expensive legacy school rather than send to a more affordable school - well they probably feel a little guilt about that... therefore all this bullying. Nice, huh?

1 reply · active 607 weeks ago

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keep it real. · 607 weeks ago

"The low cost options should be able to open without bashing the existing schools. "

The initial email regarding HeAtid High School used the word "failing" once. Get over it. In hindsight, it probably was not the best word to use, but it is really not such a big deal. Let's sop being so thin skinned and move on. Further, the initial email also referred to the existing schools as "Excellent." I would hardly call this "bashing."

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Jonathan · 607 weeks ago

And furthermore, when I spoke to members of the board of HeAtid last year, I couldn't get them to say a bad word about the legacy schools. All they spoke about were the positives of HeAtid.

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Steve · 607 weeks ago

Yes, the e-mail was a little strongly worded but anyone who knows Gershon knows that he would much prefer to work with the existing schools if he could. They just aren't interested. I for one am very grateful that he fights for people like me who simply can't afford these prices anymore and I make enough money that I shouldn't have to beg for a scholarship.

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sick of the bullying · 607 weeks ago

Steve I couldn't agree more. Gershon and other members of He'atid Board can well afford the tuition of legacy schools... but they believe in the need for a new product and tuition affordability and are dedicating hundreds of hours of their own personal time to try to make that a reality.

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Just curious · 607 weeks ago

Does the heatid scholarship committee make random home inspections?

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Steve · 607 weeks ago

yes they do.

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Just curious · 607 weeks ago

That is interesting. Do you know how many surprise visits they made? Did they visit all or just a percentage of the scholarship recipients? Did they end up revoking any scholarships as a result of what they saw? How often? Did they end up giving more scholarship based on apparent additional needs? Would be very helpful to understand how this method of verification is working.

3 replies · active 607 weeks ago

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he atid · 607 weeks ago

people on scholarship at he atid have cable and iphones just like scholarship receipients at legacies. not sure what surprise visits are discovering.

1 reply · active 607 weeks ago

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Shocked · 607 weeks ago

We, as a community, support countless families, organizations, institutions and we do it with dignity and respect. Recently, BC had a "clothing store" set-up for families that cannot afford to shop at a regular mall. It was done with dignity - private appointments, 1-2 store "clerks" at a time, etc.

What are people advocating for on this website? Should the schools publish a list of their scholarship recipients? Should we only allow "dumb" phones and not smart phones? Work 6-days a week, both parents? How about the family spend a Sunday at the park or at the beach? When a child has a birthday, can they pick-up a pie of pizza, carvel cake or chinese takeout, or is the kid permitted to only celebrate virtually, looking at it on their school's ipads? Should children attend camp or should a parent have the children sit home with a babysitter for the summer? Is camp educational or a luxury?

Could a family or two be "gaming" the system at a school or two. I am sure it may exist to some degree, but enough humiliation and paperwork / documentation is given to each scholarship committee, that majority - almost all, i believe, are reasonably in need. I do NOT believe they should be further humiliated. If anything, I know some families that should be given MORE scholarship money than they do receive.

1 reply · active 606 weeks ago

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