Tuesday, December 20, 2011

How DOES He'atid Do It?

I think it’s a fair question to ask.  How can they sustain an all-in price of 40% less than the least expensive traditional day school in the area?  It gets asked on this blog a lot but often in such an attacking way that He’atid suppporters react angrily and the entire conversation devolves into a shouting match.  But it’s important to ask so other schools can try to emulate their model and we can have more low cost options.

He’atid claims it will reduce costs by: 
1.       Using blended learning to reduce the necessary teacher:student ratio

2.       Reducing administrative overhead

3.       Eliminating “Baked-In” scholarships in the tuition.  (Lower costs would result in less scholarship demand and remaining scholarship requirements would come from separate funds)
 My sources at Yavneh tell me that at a recent Q&A with the administration they were able to get the following information about how their tuition dollars were being spent.  I’m trying to square the He’atid claims of cost savings with Yavneh’s breakdown to see if the savings really add up.  I came up with the following:


1.       Yavneh spends about 80% of its budget on payroll and about 80% of that is on faculty.  So this is the majority of the spending & where cuts need to happen.  But at a recent He’atid meeting with Kindergarten parents they said that the class would have 20 kids with one teacher & one assistant.  If some parents double-registered & don’t send their kids to He’atid the ratio would be even lower.  So that’s a cost savings over Yavneh which has 2 teachers & an assistant in kindergarten.  But in the older grades most of the classes in Yavneh have only one teacher with a floating assistant teacher which He’atid plans on having as well.  So there are some savings to be had there but not a tremendous amount.
  
2.       Yavneh said 16% of its payroll expenses or 13% of its overall budget are for administration.  So cutting off a third of that saves about [CORRECTION:] 4.5% of the overall costs of running the school

3.       Scholarships.  Yavneh says it has a budget of $9.5m & 20% of the 695 students are on scholarship.   (Average 7K per scholarship student) On a typical year the scholarship totals about one million dollars.  The past 2 years with unemployment high its gone up to about $1.1m.  About $350K is raised in scholarship donations which means that about $1,000 of our tuition dollars funds scholarships.  This year with donations a little lower, enrollment a little down and scholarship needs still high it may go as high as $1500 per student.  (those who think that scholarship funds are fully funded from donors are wrong in Yavneh and every other Day School in the tri-state area)

Bear in mind that He’atid also has a rent expense and Yavneh’s building is paid off.  Building fund covers major capital improvements only.  Also He’atid will have tremendous technology expenses, both equipment and staff, to handle all the computers in every classroom.

All in all I can see He’atid cutting costs by 20%, but 40%?  Perhaps He’atid can give a detailed explanation of how they can do that.  Maybe I’m missing something.

Perhaps tuition will rise in the future.  If so, maybe that is all the more reason to enroll for this coming year.  If it’s a limited time offer I don’t want to miss out!

196 comments:

  1. Your Yavneh numbers are way off

    ReplyDelete
  2. Heatid has GD - none of the other schools have that. End os story as to why Heatid will be superior to the other schools at a fraction of the price.

    ReplyDelete
  3. 8:22,

    Which numbers are off? How do you know? These supposedly came from the Executive Director.

    ReplyDelete
  4. there is no way only 1k of tuition is going toward scholarship,ask him

    ReplyDelete
  5. 854 exatcly " supposedly " why dont you email the school and ask them the numbers

    ReplyDelete
  6. YF,

    Thanks for the interesting post. I believe your insights are broadly correct though some will argue on the specifics. I don't know Yavneh's numbers but I did go to open houses at my kid's school and the numbers for scholarships are better than the ones you note above. For example, YNJ reported that its scholarship reception alone brought in half a million dollars last year, not including other donations. From my conversations and investigation, their scholarship "load" on parents is much less than what you quoted for Yavneh. Even the administration savings are questionable given that we know that He'Atid will have at least 2 administrators for about 100 kids. On a per student basis, the other schools could have 6 to 10 times this number of admins (which they don't) and still be cost competitive. I suspect there are 2 things going on - 1) He'Atid is overestimating the cost factors at the other schools and as a result making very poor assumptions on how much they can save and 2) they have raised enough money from donors to subsidize the tuition for quite a while until they figure this out. For parents this could be a financial bonanza in the short term as long as the educational model works for their child.

    I also have it from good sources that He'Atid was betting on the virtual school taking off and as a result being able to provide some secular classes on computers for older grades while being paid for by the state. Given the virtual school has fallen through, I don't know what their current assumptions are.

    ReplyDelete
  7. "Heatid has GD - none of the other schools have that. End os story as to why Heatid will be superior to the other schools at a fraction of the price. "

    Posts like these are exactly why we view everything from heatid with a grain of salt. Some of you people have elevated GD to messianic status, and I don't think its a good thing. Is GD writing a substantial check? When GD adds up 2 plus 2, does he get 5? Don't you realize how ridiculous you make GD and heatid sound when you post this stupidity?

    Personally, having been involved in budgetary matters all my life, I think heatid is running a quasi bait and switch. I say quasi because after having spoken to them, I think they really believe they can deliver these prices ad infinitum. The problem is, their experience in this is next to nil. They have revised their projections many times, due to ignirance, not malice. I believe they will offer scholarships and they will offer resource room. I don't see how they can survive in this community without it. Believe me, as much as some thity-somethings think they run this town, they don't. The real power is entrenched, and the standards are not going to change. I have lived here for over 20 years, and I know more people than the vast majority of you. Feel free to believe Gershon is anyone you want him to be.

    ReplyDelete
  8. 9:00,

    I did ask him and he confirms it. He did mention though, that throwing out every scholarship family wouldnt change the tuition at all because the fixed costs don't change and the school would be losing revenue from the scholarship parents who are still paying an average of $7K apiece. Also, I imagine that the big donors wouldn't support a school that did that.

    ReplyDelete
  9. As far as the virtual school goes, that was never a part of He'atid's assumptions. At the parlor meetings, the founders said they were hoping for it but never assumed it would go through.

    ReplyDelete
  10. One more thing:

    I don't know if He'atid factored in the cost of tuition breaks for staff in their budgeting.

    Rabbi Gralla said he was hoping to get teachers with at least 10 years experience who are technologically savvy so they can deal with the computer parts of the curriculum. So that means 30-somethings, most of whom have school-age children. They will be looking for the same tuition breaks that other schools give them or some other type of compensation to make it worth it for them to teach there.

    ReplyDelete
  11. First off, very impressed that you would even QUESTION He'atid. Clearly, this isn't the OTHER blog.

    Second, I'm skeptical regarding the whole scholarship issue. I, too, was under the impression that scholarships ate up a sizeable chunk of my tuition dollars. Then I had a conversation with none other than GD himself.

    According to GD, scholarships account for a very small portion of my tuition bill (at least in my kids' yeshiva, where he was treasurer). As he explained it, the elimination of scholarship students would NOT, as many seem to think, reduce the budget on a pro-rata basis. In other words, if you expelled that (let's call it) 30% of the student body, you couldn't turn around the next day and fire 30% of staff. The school would be smaller and the classes would be smaller, and you perhaps could get rid of a teacher or two (even an admin!) - but the fact remains it would not be a dollar-for-dollar cut. Not even close.

    Furthermore, GD said, many people who are on scholarship are not on FULL scholarship - so they are still contributing. Take away their dollars, and the school's income falls. Plus a lot of the scholarship is paid for by donors through fundraising.

    Net net, if you removed scholarships from the picture it would have minimal impact on my tuition bill, maybe 2-3%.

    All this from GD himself.

    Keep in mind, GD is not some rich guy who doesn't understand finances. He is the head of High Yield Fixed Income research at AllianceBernstein. If anyone can crunch the numbers it's him.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Sheesh. How many times does it have to be stated: HeAtid WILL offer need-based scholarships (i.e., tzedaka) for those families who cannot afford the $9K all-in tuition.
    Scholarships will be offered at HeAtid.
    Offering scholarships is something HeAtid will do.
    Will HeAtid offer scholarships? Yes.
    Not only that, at the open house HeAtid claimed to already have donors lined up to fund the scholarships for the first two years.
    HeAtid will use the same process for determining scholarship needs as all the other schools. The only difference is that HeAtid plans to raise 100% of the scholarship money from donations as opposed to raising part of the money from donations and part of the money from tuition. They also expect to have much lower scholarship needs than the other schools because their base tuition is affordable to many more families.

    ReplyDelete
  13. So, we have seen that virtually all of Chump's assumptions about scholarship were wrong. If Chumpy were a stock, I could short it and make a fortune.

    ReplyDelete
  14. right now he atid is basically opening with a nursery school lets see what the school looks like in a few years when they actually become a full fledged grade school. my thoughts are either there will be very little teacher time for the older children or tuition will go up.

    ReplyDelete
  15. 9:05 wrote:

    "I also have it from good sources that He'Atid was betting on the virtual school taking off and as a result being able to provide some secular classes on computers for older grades while being paid for by the state. Given the virtual school has fallen through, I don't know what their current assumptions are."

    Could you amplify. Someone said that the head of the virtual school is also very involved in He'Atid but I did not realize that He'Atid wanted to have a relationship with that failed idead. I must say though that, if you are correct, and He'Atid actually did plan on what you describe, then there is even greater recklessness and wishful thinking on its part then I originally thought:

    1. Get a reality check folks. There is absolutely no way the state can (nor should it) pay for "secular classes" at YESHIVAT He'Atid!

    2. Why would He'Atid want to have anything to do with virtual charter school that was doomed to fail and caused a big mess?

    ReplyDelete
  16. Avi,

    I think we are all past the 'will they or won't they provide scholarship' question. The points above where in reference to how much savings can be achieved by ensuring that 100% of scholarships are covered by donations (and how is this even possible to guarantee). Points made above are that despite all the hype to the contrary scholarships are a having a minimal to no impact on the tuition of full paying parents depending on schools. Certainly eliminating scholarships does not take you from 15k down to 9k. I've heard more than one person (at least one of whom was associated with He'Atid) say that the scholarship savings was the biggest contributor to the tuition saving. If this is the case then there is something very wrong with their assumptions.

    It is also important to note that no school plans to give out more scholarship than they raise in donations but as they say - stuff happens. Perhaps He'Atid will decide each year how many scholarship students it has sufficient funds and decide to throw those it can't afford. This approach is difficult on many levels but I don't see any other way of guaranteeing that scholarships will always be covered by fundraising.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Obviously, the comparison to Yavneh is a difficult one to make. Yavneh is an Orthodox lower and middle school that values academic and extra curricular excellence. That is the primary concern of parents who send their children to that school. Yeshivat He'Atid aspires to be more like RYNJ, a yeshivah ketanah, albeit one directed to the MO (or the somewhat MO) community. That is what its head of school meant when he said there would be separate classes for boys and girls as directed by the communal posekim. Certainly, there is room for both a Yavneh and a RYNJ in our community, catering to different values and needs. But if you are attempting to determine whether there is need for an additional school, the real question is whether there is a need for another RYNJ.

    Nonetheless, assuming a comparison could be made to Yavneh, you probably need to be a bit more specific as to where He'Atid seeks to save costs. Some examples might include:

    1. Yavneh has a psychologist and a social worker. He'Atid won't have that. The president of He'Atid's PTA wrote in the Standard that parents looking for special services for their kids should pay for them on their own.

    2. Yaveh has art and music instruction. No need at He'Atid;

    3. Yavneh has gym instruction and sports teams. Those are extras that shouldn't be paid for by others;

    4. Yavneh has administrators supervising and arranging curriculum for early childhood, lower school and middle school. He'Atid does plan to have those;

    5. Yavneh has specific instruction in computers. Won't need that at He'Atid b/c everyone associated with He'Atid is tech savvy;

    6. Yavneh has an executive director. No need for that at He'Atid because GD will do it all;

    7. Yavneh has a library and librarians. But that can fall by the wayside too at He'Atid where everything will be on line;

    8. Yavneh has a lunch program with a cook and lunchroom staff. He'Atid doesn't need to be feeding anyone's children.

    What it comes to again is very simply: What do you want for your children and what values do you want to share with them?

    ReplyDelete
  18. I see that some people do not want He'atid to be a success, no matter what. They will continue to bash them till Moshiach comes. Why don't they just say " there is a new school in BC and I wish them much success" Finished! Is that so difficult? No one is twisting anyones arm to send their kid(s) there. I believe that He'atid will be a success and everyone should wish them well.

    ReplyDelete
  19. So, including supplemental donations (i.e. scholarship) brings the ACTUAL per pupil cost to?

    FYI, TPS is $17,891 w/ 4151 students... and the teachers (which is the majority of any budget, let alone Yavneh) are paid like professionals, not CHUMPS.

    The answer really is regionalization and merging the Yeshivas (to save money), rather than forming new ones, isn't it?

    ReplyDelete
  20. Anon 10:51... "What it comes to again is very simply: What do you want for your children and what values do you want to share with them?"

    The value being (according to your viewpoint), you're on your own, sink or swim.

    Need extra help, have little food, have an issue, good luck and pay for them yourself... if you can.

    Am Yisrael Chai!

    ReplyDelete
  21. 10:16, perhaps you should look at the question a little differently: Can the community shoulder the responsibility of starting a 6th school during an economic downturn when not all schools are filled to capacity? Maybe if you looked at the question that way and not simply whether individuals are free to do as they please no matter the consequences of finite communal resources, you would be far less judgmental.

    ReplyDelete
  22. you guys are 100 percent WRONG its not 1k from my tuition that goies toward scholarship, its alot more, go ask your school boards and finance committee people. to say its only 1k is a false

    ReplyDelete
  23. Yid,

    I'm not sure what your point is. TPS is not doing a great job and is more expensive than our private day schools. I'm sure they can do a more efficient job but is the answer to crush our day schools by having them lower costs further? I'm all for getting as much for my money as possible but honestly it is a very tough world out there and getting tougher. Short changing our kid's education so that we can live in private homes in an upscale community is not a trade-off that I can get comfortable with.

    ReplyDelete
  24. I love it how all the hacks getting ripped off at legacy schools are spreading lies at heatid to justify why they will be paying double what I am paying in tuition next year as I enjoy the comparable services heatid will offer.

    ReplyDelete
  25. " perhaps you should look at the question a little differently: Can the community shoulder the responsibility of starting a 6th school during an economic downturn when not all schools are filled to capacity?"

    We can't afford another legacy school but we sure as hell can and need a real alternative to legacy schools and that is a void that He'atid will be filling thank God.

    ReplyDelete
  26. 10:25, by what measure are you determining "TPS is not doing a great job"?

    ReplyDelete
  27. 10:15, you are making a lot of incorrect assumptions about He'atid. For startes Rabbi Gralla said clearly that Art and music will be a part of the regular corriculum. At the open house he said that "at some point" boys and girls will be separated but that its to soonn to say exactly when. It depends in part by how many children they have & whether or not they can completely fill 2 sections. He didn't say anything about poskim.

    I'm not sure if you were being serious in your post or not but I wanted to set the record straight.

    ReplyDelete
  28. 10:28,

    By every objective measure tracked by the government. Check out http://teaneckcauses.com/ if you want all the gory details.

    ReplyDelete
  29. "For startes Rabbi Gralla said clearly that Art and music will be a part of the regular corriculum."

    Of course there will be art and music but we aren't going to pay some local mommy to do the job so that her kids can all get free tuition. This is the crap that many legacy schools do that pisses off so many chumps who don't have the right connections to get these type of jobs for our wives.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Yeshiva Dad (10:29), I am not sure if your post about the comparison to Yavneh is serious or not. That is a school with a mission and parent body that values education and extra curricular excellence. Anyone who knows anything about current day education knows you cannot have those kinds of aspirations and objectives when your focus is on cutting costs by getting rid of educators or paying them a sub standard wage. Be realistic. He'Atid is primarily about cost savings and that is its selling point. Parents who choose do so for different reasons than parents who select Yavneh. If you wish to make a comparison to another school, try to pick one with standards closer in line to He'Atid.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Why are people (or just one poster with lots of posts) talking about Yavneh like it is Ramaz or some fancy NYC prep school? Is this some kind of joke?

    ReplyDelete
  32. 10:33, "By every objective measure tracked by the government"? Really, EVERY ONE?

    I assume you have kids there, since you have first-hand knowledge? Or is the conjecture by those who are outside of the system, who have no contextual understanding of the system, nor a working appreciation for it, the sole arbiter?

    BTW, how do the Yeshivas evaluate according to those same "objective measure(s) tracked" by "government"?? Define "objective" as it relates to Yeshiva "measures."

    ReplyDelete
  33. 10:25,

    Regarding the amount of scholarship "baked-in" to tuition, the ED of Yavneh is a mentsh and is very knowledgable about the budget. I trust what he says. It may be as high as $1500 this year. GD says the same thing, according to 8:45. What is your source that it is far more than $1K?

    ReplyDelete
  34. To put it into perspective, lets look at year 1 of He'Atid in terms of quick financials:
    Revenue:
    Pre-K: 40 x $7,990= $320K
    K-1 (or 2): 60 x $8,990= $539K
    Total Revenue: $859K

    Costs (best guess):
    Rabbi Gralla: $200K including benefits
    5 Teachers: $350K including benefits
    5 Assistants: $250K including benefits
    Rent: At least $50K for the year

    You now have nothing left once you paid for 1 admin, 5 teachers, 5 asst teachers, and the building. What about all the other expenses? I understand donations might be covering year 1, but what happens if there is only 2 classes added next year? The numbers still don't work at the current tuition.

    ReplyDelete
  35. 10:35,

    you completely missed the point of my post. I was trying to determine how costs can be drastically reduced from Yavneh's budget to arrive at He'atids budget and I couldn't figure it out. YNJ, Noam and Moriah all have a similar business model to Yavneh (hashkafic differences aside) so the numbers are probably comparable there as well. He'atid has a price point way below all of them & I'm trying to figure out how.

    ReplyDelete
  36. "Can the community shoulder the responsibility of starting a 6th school during an economic downturn when not all schools are filled to capacity?".

    Maybe some schools should consolidate.

    Makes more sense to eliminate one of the 5 schools that are more or less the same (here come some hysterical posters disagreeing) than the one with an completely different model. Well do a separate post about that.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Yeshiva Dad (10:35), understood, but your assumption in doing that analysis is that it is a fair market price comparison. It is not. The product being sold by Yavneh (albeit not at levels of an NYC prep school or Ramaz) is far different than the one being sold by He'Atid. Thus, you cannot do a proper price comparison without factoring in those differences.

    ReplyDelete
  38. If a teacher and an assistant cost $120K total, that is $6K per kid based on 20 kids in a class, almost $5K based on 25 kids in a class. The real question is, can a school run on $3K-$4K per kid excluding teachers? I certainly don't know, anybody here know?

    ReplyDelete
  39. YD, regaurding 1025, GO and ask them yourselves and get it in writng. they will not do it, you are the one that claims it 1k, you need to prove it, not those here, i have spoken to those on the board and they will tell you is more like 2 - 3 k per student tuitiom

    ReplyDelete
  40. Yeshiva Dad (10:54), agreed. Consolidation would actually be wise and prudent and is the normal course of action in an economic downturn.

    ReplyDelete
  41. YD stop telling people its only 1000 from each tuition. no chance

    ReplyDelete
  42. YD, good luck on your blog. In terms of suggestions I would like to suggest that people post their names on their comments. This will result in sincere and accountable conversations.

    Another point I would like to make is that Bergen County does not have to be the only residence for MO families. The BC community has run its schools a certain way for many years, and while constructive criticism is always welcome, I encourage families that move to BC or who register at a particular school to come in open-eyed and know what they are getting into (whether it be administration, budget, scholarship policies, etc). You would never walk into a milchig restaurant and curse the chef for not serving fleishigs! Yet, unfortunately, that is the tone of many of the blog posts. Again, I am not against change , but request that it be discussed in proper perspective.
    B'hatzlocha

    ReplyDelete
  43. "I am not sure if your post about the comparison to Yavneh is serious or not."

    I'm not Yeshiva Dad, but he seemed serious to me.

    "That is a school with a mission and parent body that values education and extra curricular excellence."

    That's the broad aim of HeAtid, too, though the extra curricular programs will almost certainly be extra-cost. Having never been a Yavneh parent, I don't know if Yavneh's extra curricular programs are included in tuition. Are they?

    "Anyone who knows anything about current day education knows you cannot have those kinds of aspirations and objectives when your focus is on cutting costs by getting rid of educators..."

    You're wrong. You can absolutely have those aspirations while keeping costs in check. JFS does - and delivers on them. HeAtid absolutely has this as a goal as well. It is too soon to judge whether it can deliver on them.

    "...or paying them a sub standard wage."

    HeAtid plans to pay competitive salaries. To suggest otherwise is either deliberate slander or misinformation.

    "Be realistic. He'Atid is primarily about cost savings and that is its selling point."

    You're only half right. HeAtid is definitely partly about cost savings. However, the other half of its value proposition is its educational approach, which aims to bring more individualized computer-based instruction and more group projects in addition to standard lecture-style learning.

    "Parents who choose do so for different reasons than parents who select Yavneh."

    First thing you've said I agree with. I have no doubt that people will choose the schools for different reasons. Some will prefer Yavneh's teaching methodology and long track record of success. (And some will choose it for sillier reasons - their friends are sending their kids there, or they prefer the tiny differences in hashkafa of one school over another.) Others will prefer HeAtid's educational model and/or cost savings.

    "If you wish to make a comparison to another school, try to pick one with standards closer in line to He'Atid."

    I found this insulting - not just to HeAtid, but to whatever unnamed school you think has lower standards. There are differences in emphasis, but all of our local schools have pretty high standards. It's one of the great things about living in BC. And all the schools that have been around long enough to have 8th grades send their graduates to the same high schools.

    ReplyDelete
  44. I agree with Yechiel, it's very difficult to follow a conversation when people are addressing each other as "10:47."

    Is there a way to take out "Anonymous" as a choice when leaving a comment?

    ReplyDelete
  45. Avi, you are absolutely correct. All kids end up at the same high schools. It is up to parents to make the determination what they truly expect out of an elementary school. It seems parents hear "education" and immediately jump to graduate university in their minds. If parents were to look only to the next level on the long path, they would make more realistic choices.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Anon 8:45 - Heatid has GD - none of the other schools have that. End of story as to why Heatid will be superior to the other schools at a fraction of the price.

    Didn't RYNJ have GD up until recently? Hmm, maybe it's no coincidence that RYNJ has somewhat lower tuition than the other legacy Yeshivot.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Exactly, 11:11. Parents should make choices based on the educational differences at the schools, and there is no question there are differences. Cost (while a communal concern that needs to be addressed) should not be the reason someone chooses a school.

    ReplyDelete
  48. i think that ALL the schools in BC are at best PAR. you guys in BC dont have a real GEM to compare it to that is your problem. sorry to bust your bubble

    ReplyDelete
  49. It is interesting to hear the snobbery coming from the pro-yavneh camp. Yes, they do offer an extremely wide array of services well beyond what other schools do, or what some parents feel are vital to their child's future success.

    There are snobs in BC, and therefore there should be an option for them. No disrespect intended. If you can amply afford it, then why not totally shower your children with every luxury you can afford.

    The question for the rest of the community is whether we can be realistic of what we need for our ELEMENTARY children to give them the foundation to be a mench and a positive contributor to the community and the world when they grow up.

    Because Yavneh is the most senior school in town, and does represent "the best / most elite", all parents look up to it and yearn to have their kids partake in its glory. The bottom line is that we need to provide our children with what is needed and should not stretch ourselves beyond that point. Not to disparage YU, but it is like hiring a private tutor to raise your kids SAT score to a 1400 (using the old scale out of 1600) to get into YU. If you were decent in High School and have an average SAT score, you are almost guaranteed a spot in YU. So as a parent, do you feel it is worth it to hire the tutor? Maybe it is nice to brag about the high score, but maybe the money would serve better purposes for life insurance, retirement, vacations, or charity.

    This economic downturn should be looked at as a gift from G-d to self-examine our priorities - not only on our personal spending but on what our children really need out of a school.

    ReplyDelete
  50. "10:47 - idiot!! no one ever said he'atid would be cash flow positive in the first few years. "

    That is correct. However, being cash flow negative by a few hundred thousand can be made up with donations. Being cash flow negative by millions, most likely cannot. Yes they might have $1M to cover year one. Will this million in donations repeat in years 2 and 3? In the long term, I think the school can survive if the enrollment numbers are high enough. However with tuition this low in the beginning before the economies of scale take effect, I don't see how the school can get to "the long run" unless they have millions in donations for the first few years. Do they have millions already pledged or are they taking it one year at a time?

    ReplyDelete
  51. This quote is the exact reason BC is so screwed up -

    "Cost (while a communal concern that needs to be addressed) should not be the reason someone chooses a school."

    Of course cost should factor in where you send to school. Cost factors into every decision you make in life (house, vacations, clothes, food, charity, etc). What a stupid comment. When you put education on a pedestal, you are really over-marketing its value in life. All schools are competent and all children from all of the schools have the same chances for a life of happiness and success.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Yid 10:45,

    Not sure why your beef is with me. Go read the reports and you decide. If you think they are a success and you want to take advantage of them, more power to you.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Mark - nice try but YNJ has been run very efficiently even before Gershon came along. He will be the first to acknowledge this.

    ReplyDelete
  54. So let me get this right, GD used to be a board member of RYNJ (hope he wasn't planning this endeavor while serving on the board there). R. Gralla has said he wants there to be separate classes for boys and girls . . . Do you think He'Atid will be more like Yavneh or more like RYNJ?

    ReplyDelete
  55. 11:39, of course he was planning this while he was a board member at RYNJ, he was planning while accepting an honor from them at last year's dinner.

    ReplyDelete
  56. 11:48, seriously??? Ouch!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  57. Anon 11:35 - Mark - nice try but YNJ has been run very efficiently even before Gershon came along. He will be the first to acknowledge this.

    Wasn't "trying" anything, was just mentioning it. No doubt they've been the more financially prudent school over the years even before GD came along.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Anonymous said...
    To put it into perspective, lets look at year 1 of He'Atid in terms of quick financials:
    Revenue:
    Pre-K: 40 x $7,990= $320K
    K-1 (or 2): 60 x $8,990= $539K
    Total Revenue: $859K

    Costs (best guess):
    Rabbi Gralla: $200K including benefits
    5 Teachers: $350K including benefits
    5 Assistants: $250K including benefits
    Rent: At least $50K for the year

    You now have nothing left once you paid for 1 admin, 5 teachers, 5 asst teachers, and the building. What about all the other expenses? I understand donations might be covering year 1, but what happens if there is only 2 classes added next year? The numbers still don't work at the current tuition.


    IF YOU THINK THEY ARE PAYING NOAM ONLY $50K PER YEAR, YOU ARE SMOKING CRACK! ON THE CONSERVATIVE SIDE, I WOULD TRIPLE THAT NUMBER TO $150K BUT MORE THAN LIKELY, ITS BETWEEN $175 AND $200K...PLUS UTILITIES, INSURANCE, AND OTHER EXPENSES RELATED TO RENTING A BUILDING
    December 20, 2011 10:47 AM

    ReplyDelete
  59. Please don't post all in caps anymore. Its distracting.

    ReplyDelete
  60. 11:39,

    Boys and girls are separated in the older grades at Noam as well. It's not just YNJ

    ReplyDelete
  61. Can someone post the same details YD posted about Yavneh for RYNJ? It would interesting to see how it stacks up. My gut tells me they have a similar infrastructure, but simply have more students which drives down "per student" costs.

    You will see that it all really comes down to number of students. That is why a merger is the most effective way to lower costs (and would not necessarily have to impact quality at all)

    ReplyDelete
  62. Yeshiva Dad, Rocketship, one of the schools that He'atid is modeled on has a tuition that is abou 3K less than He'atid is offering - supposedly the extra will make up for the Judaic. The school in Baltimore (religious school with Judaic component) profiled by the Jewish Week last week charges less tuition as well. Clearly the assumptions you make in cost reduction are not correct /enough. Those two schools manage to lower their tuition and are successful. Not sure who you expect to answer your post - I dont think a Board member of He'atid is going to post and the parents who are sending to the school clearly have gotten enough answers that they are satisfied to send /their child will have a successful education. So the end result of your post is just to have people posturing as to how much extra in tuition is scholarship, the He'atid will be able to do it, wont be ablet to do it - without anyone really knowing the facts.

    ReplyDelete
  63. RYNJ probably has some other costs:

    1. The boys have to be educated in Jewish subjects by rebbes, who cost more b/c there is a clear inequitable pay structure at Jewish schools. I think there was a lawsuit about this in Long Island;

    2. They pay out full tuition for the rebbes 7-8 children;

    3. They have a more serious dress code so they likely have to have staff around to enforce skirting rules and the like.

    ReplyDelete
  64. 10:50, you calculated 350k for 5 teachers? Other than PS, where do teachers get paid 70+? Yeshiva Teachers make 40-50k, generally.

    AND, no benefits.

    ReplyDelete
  65. And 50k for assistants... LOL. With benefits... hahahahahaha. You guys seriously don't realize how little Teachers and Assistants make.

    ReplyDelete
  66. 10:33 And I would like you to adjust the results as per the District Factor Group of the Yeshivas vs. the TPS system and compare/contrast the results.

    ReplyDelete
  67. 12:03,

    The Baltimore school uses a virtual charter for all but judaic studies. So if you eliminate every math, english, science, and social studies teacher you can have huge savings. That is not He'atid's model.

    Rocketship is a network of charter schools so they don't have tuition. If you mean cost/pupil maybe you're right but I can't find anything online that shows it. Please send a link. Also, how are staff costs in the various neighborhoods where they have branches comparable with BC?

    ReplyDelete
  68. 12:22 - yes cost per pupil - i actually think it is less -in the $5ks - than I reported. I can't send you a link. This was verbally told to me - although I imagine the information is out there. Overall point though is that there is a school that is doing the english subjects for substantially less than He'atid is charging, which leaves plenty of room for Judaic costs. Other overall point, is that He'atid has said they have a budget that goes out 10 years. We all know people on the Board are money people who have served on school boards - not sure why their knowledge has to be less than the people who are at other schools. Anyone here who has not seen the budget can't really debate whether it will or wont work. All these guesses about scholarship at existing schools, teacher salaries all seem just that - guesses - so not sure where we are getting with this conversation. To have people just write that He'atid wont work cause they know it can't - cause they must have millions in debt, etc - they haven't seen the budget.

    ReplyDelete
  69. Yeshiva DAd - The baltimore school does NOT use a virtual charter. Get your facts straight.

    ReplyDelete
  70. 1227, YD has most of his facts wrong, i dont know who is feeding him all this garbage.

    YD are you going to delete this post too?

    ReplyDelete
  71. How do they teach the Yiddish class at the Baltimore school?

    ReplyDelete
  72. 12:27 - that is correct - per the article in the Jewish Week, there is no mention of a virtual charter. It has regular teachers for all, charging less than He'atid. That school can do it, Rocketship has been doing it.

    ReplyDelete
  73. it was the other school - the one in edison /highland park that is the virtual - that is likely where Yeshiva Dad's confusion comes from

    ReplyDelete
  74. YD - according to the innosight report on blended learning rocketship is $7,585 public rev / pupil. i don't see how this is 3k less than he'atid but i also don't know if this is cost or just how much they get from the public school system. they claim to have a $500k savings over traditional public schools with 1,328 students. this doesn't translate to the thousands in saving claimed by heatid. and by the way, this is the only comparable example that is documented anywhere. one school out of hundreds of thousands is hardly proof that the new model is better and it is clear from these numbers that it isn't appreciable cheaper.

    ReplyDelete
  75. does anyone on his blog work? i am how do you all have time to post?

    ReplyDelete
  76. 12:30 -the point wasn't that the model is better or not - the point was that He'atid cannot make it charging the tuition they charge - that they must be millions in debt, that it is a bait and switch. I actually believe the costs for Rocketship are lower, but maybe it is the costs for the higher grades are lower

    ReplyDelete
  77. also how come no one has commented about the Baltimore school - their tuition is lower than He'atid's - with a Judaic component -they seem to be doing it too - so it is possible

    ReplyDelete
  78. When I searched the Jewish Week's website for school in Baltimore this article popped up:

    http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/new_york/jewish_day_schools_look_online_savings

    My apologies. I should have read it more closely. Please send me the link to the article you were referring to

    ReplyDelete
  79. go to www.thejewishweek.com - it is on the front page of the website

    ReplyDelete
  80. Just to clarify: I am a big supporter of He'atid. Have been since the beginning. If I can see the budget, see what assumptions are being made, then maybe I will understand how they are doing it. I don't see why this information can't be shared. Like I said, Yavneh has been very open about their budget.

    ReplyDelete
  81. Look, you just can't compare salaries out of town with us. The COL here in Bergen County is one of the highest in the country. You are not going to get away paying teachers slighly above minimum wage here. therefore, the comparisons with Baltimore and others is kind of meaningless. Try to get a home in Teaneck for 120k.

    ReplyDelete
  82. YD - you can't expect a person from He'atid to post on your blog. If you want real facts, call someone on the Board up and discuss with them. I dont see how posting what you posted gets you anywhere closer to the truth.

    ReplyDelete
  83. 12:45 -that's right --the tuition in the Baltimore school is cheaper than HE'atids - for K and up He'atid is more than 1k more than the Baltimore school

    ReplyDelete
  84. Ok, I see it now. Ohr Chadash in Baltimore. Opening this year K-6 for $7500. Congratulations to our friends in Baltimore!

    http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/new_york/jewish_day_schools_look_online_savings

    Sounds very similar to He'atid. I guess I would ask them the same questions.

    ReplyDelete
  85. You people all ask too many questions. I am sending to Heatid next year because I will save many thousands of dollars and because I believe the education will be just as good as at any legacy school. I don't care to see any budget or projections for how things will be 7 or 8 years down the road. Who cares? We all might be dead or living in Israel or whatever then. Demanding projections for Heatid going ten years into the future is dumb. Why not demand the same from the legacy schools and ask them how many people will be able to afford their outrageous tuition ten years from now.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Avi,

    You asked if extra curricular stuff at Yavneh is "extra" cost?

    Yes and no.

    One doesn't pay to be on the hockey or basketball team BUT they do pay for uniform, sweatpants, etc. In addition, before many of the school trips (Statue of Liberty, Museum, 8th grade graduation trip), notices will be sent home asking to pay some sort of fee (sometimes is partially subsidized by the school) for the trip.

    One more thing: 11.24 mentioned that Yavneh represents "the best / most elite, all parents look up to it and yearn to have their kids partake in its glory".

    What does that mean? Yavneh is the oldest school but..most elite? It's tuition is not the highest, it's building is certainly not the nicest...and I would venture to say the median (median, not average)family income at Yavneh is not much different than the other schools in BC (I'm guessing but what do you think it is - maybe $200k? 225?). What makes this more elite than the other established schools?

    ReplyDelete
  87. Thanks Yeshiva Dad for admitting that He'Atid is "very similar" to the type of Jewish schools they have in Baltimore. At what age will the He'Atid boys have to start wearing black hats and jackets?

    ReplyDelete
  88. this new blog sucks just like the old one. cant we have a normal coversation ?

    ReplyDelete
  89. Teaneck Parent, 11:24 was referring to Yavneh parents being elitist when it comes to academic and extra curricular standards. There's probably not much difference between a Yavneh parent and a Moriah parent but what 11:24 was referring to was the different educational standards and expecations between Yavneh/Moriah and RYNJ/He'Atid, which are quite different.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Yeshiva Dad said...

    "Yavneh has been very open about their budget."

    Not based on the details you posted.
    9.5M Total budget

    80% of its budget on payroll ($7.6M)
    - 80% of that is on faculty ($6,080)
    - 16% of that is on admins ($1,216K)
    - 4% is on others ($304K)

    This doesn't help much unless you know exactly how many people are on the payroll and what the range is in each category.

    20% of its budget is spent on everything else. That's $1.9M on miscellaneous - not exactly a detailed breakdown.

    If you have more details, share them. Otherwise, I disagree that Yavneh is "open" about their budget.

    Secondly, the tuition and scholarship numbers you gave make no sense unless the all inclusive tuition was $15,200 per student. Simple math - 695 x 15,200 - 1,000,000(scholarships) = $9,564,000

    At $17,000 per head, there is an extra $1,250,000 collected.

    ReplyDelete
  91. "At what age will the He'Atid boys have to start wearing black hats and jackets?"

    Let us all hope and pray there is never any sort of jacket or hat requirement at Heatid. The last thing we need is another school in BC pretending it is MO when it is really charedi-lite.

    ReplyDelete
  92. 11:28- "All schools are competent and all children from all of the schools have the same chances for a life of happiness and success."

    Let's not get out of hand, here. Not every child has the same set of fortuitous circumstances. Each child has their own set of issues, which makes a one-size-fits-all model impossible.

    ReplyDelete
  93. "what 11:24 was referring to was the different educational standards and expecations between Yavneh/Moriah and RYNJ/He'Atid, which are quite different."

    Seriously, what does this comment even mean? Are you suggesting that the education at Moriah/Yavneh is superior to RYNJ/Heatid?

    Do you have ANY proof at all or is this something you just pulled out of your rear end?

    ReplyDelete
  94. 99% Yid - You are correct that not every child has the same chance at happiness. Thank you for catching my shorthand. I meant to say that if you stick the same child in any of the institutions in BC, they will have the same chances of happiness and success.

    I am curious if anyone disagrees with this (please focus on the educational aspects and not the hashkafik parts as that is parental choice)

    ReplyDelete
  95. Anon 1:19,

    You are correct there is no proven evidence that Yavneh or Moriah provide superior education. But that is the marketing they use. It is funny how He'Atid can get slammed for their marketing lacking proof, but these schools make such claims all the time with no proof.

    ReplyDelete
  96. 119pm this whole blog is anything but proof, that is what makes this a JOKE

    ReplyDelete
  97. 1:22. First of all, education is not about happiness. It is about the tools toward living a purposeful life. Second, haskafa and education certainly overlap. I am sure you would not want your children taught science by sorcerers, would you?

    ReplyDelete
  98. Anon 1.16:

    "what 11:24 was referring to was the different educational standards and expecations between Yavneh/Moriah and RYNJ/He'Atid, which are quite different."

    Other then hashkafa differences, what different educational standards and expectations are you referring to?

    ReplyDelete
  99. 1:22- NP. I would say, it depends. Since all children learn differently, you may find a child responds better to instruction at Yavneh vs. Noam or vice-versa. Also, making sure that kids get classified early for disabilities and assistance makes a huge difference.

    That is, other than the home-dynamic, overall attitude of the friends that child encounters, and socioeconomic assistance that the parent can afford/not afford.

    ReplyDelete
  100. Even the Hashkafic differences are minimal. The main difference between the schools imho is that RYNJ has some sort of jacket rule for boys in 8th grade. Although I'm at a loss to explain such a policy in an MO institution, let's not get carried away by it.

    ReplyDelete
  101. RYNJ maybe to the right but a lot of family that go there are not

    ReplyDelete
  102. 1:22- And that assumes the kid is a good fit with the teacher, as well. I have seen kids whose lived were changed either way because of one teacher in their life.

    ReplyDelete
  103. Mr. Dad,
    I'd like to discuss 2 points, both of which are probably tangential to the main arguments here.

    First, your heading is "How DOES He'atid Do It?" This is problematic to me. So far, He'Atid HASN'T done "it." And even when they make it through a year or two, they won't have done it if by "it" you mean "provide a proven efficacious education at a stabilized and transparent cost which continues to be appreciably below that of the competition."

    2. I like posting anonymously because, just maybe, I'm in a position where my statements and opinions could reflect on more than just myself so I can't speak my mind freely if I have to worry about the impact of what I say on others.

    ReplyDelete
  104. The hashkafic differences among some parents (other than the younger crowd at RYNJ, which appears to be rather hard core) may appear to be minimal. But the schools are very different places. One is old school MO, emphasizing equal concern for secular and Jewish subjects, focusing much more on Israel and encouraging gender equality within the confies of halakha. The other is more of a yeshivah ketana, encouraging yeshivish lifestyles and rendering MO more of a bedieved than a lechatchilla. This difference very much affects how they teach Jewish texts, ideas and values.

    ReplyDelete
  105. What does anyone think the Median income (not average) for families sending to our schools? Am I off when I say 225k?

    ReplyDelete
  106. Dumb question...

    So the slam on JFS is that it's too far for Kindergarteners to travel. If He'Atid decides to separate sexes in 4th grade and require jackets in 7th and this bothers you, why is He'Atid PreK-3, JFS 4-8 so crazy?

    Why is that the equivalent of public schooling?

    Why does Hashkafa and dress code play such a role in preschool and lower elementary school?

    Why do you need your school to be PreK - 8th? What's wrong with a PreK-3 or PreK-4 and a 4/5 - 8 school?

    The 80% of Americans that attend public schools seem to be able to switch schools from Elementary -> Middle School / Junior High School -> High School, why can't your kids?

    That would let you control tuition, have your kids in decent schools, and have your finances under control.

    He'Atid is local, JFS provides van service, and the high schools are what they are.

    If there is a "crisis" why isn't THAT a solution?

    I totally get why people want a Yeshiva and don't consider a SACS/TT combo "good enough," I just don't get why He'Atid/JFS isn't "good enough?"

    ReplyDelete
  107. 1:17,

    Its noy $17k/head. Family obligations are only per family, not per kid. And the Building Fund is not part of the $9.5M. Its a separate budget to cover capital improvements.

    I don't have all the budget info from Yavnehs Q&A session but I am told by someone who was there that it was very detailed. I just gave the numbers.that were relevant to my point.

    ReplyDelete
  108. "The main difference between the schools imho is that RYNJ has some sort of jacket rule for boys in 8th grade"

    This is a pretty dumb comment. RYNJ has separate classes for boys and girls, and a different hashkafa (although not hugely different). If you honestly are so hung up over boys wearing jackets for 30 minutes/day, I really feel bad for you.

    ReplyDelete
  109. 136pm,
    how much time would you say you need to say HEATID did it? how many years since your saying 1 or 2 years is not enough?

    ReplyDelete
  110. And I have an important question about He'atid. I am completely open to the school, the ideas, the need, etc. But WHY start it in the lower grades? Why not offer it as a high school level first?

    a) the cost difference is huge there
    b) the studies everyone posts are based on upper grades
    c) personally, I think the age is inappropriate, and the model will brake, requiring more teachers in the classroom, therefore increasing cost
    d) That age needs different educational needs (screening, assistance, resource room, etc.)

    ReplyDelete
  111. YD, i was also there and they were not detailed sorry

    ReplyDelete
  112. 99

    because parents in BC will not pull there kids out of middle school period! they just wont do it not enough demand. thats why

    ReplyDelete
  113. " If you honestly are so hung up over boys wearing jackets for 30 minutes/day, I really feel bad for you."

    A jacket is not just a jacket and you know it. There is so much more behind the wearing of a jacket during the week for davening. It simply is not a modern orthodox thing to require such garb. Honestly, how much of a difference is there between requiring a jacket and requiring a black hat and then perhaps even a gartel and/or bekeshe or streimel. It is very dangerous and slippery slope and that is why any school that mandates jackets is very suspect in my mind.

    ReplyDelete
  114. The discussion about RYNJ vs. Yavneh confirms why the "blended learning" marketing tool is baloney. How many RYNJ graduates attend Frisch or SAR? Do you know what happends to an RYNJ student when he/she wants to attend one of those high schools or a co-ed Religious Zionist Camp? It's not the computer or the book that encourages the student to adopt that value system and it cannot be attributed to the parents (because, as so many have said, the parents in BC are of the same haskhaphic mindset). It's the values system of the schools, the administrators and the teachers. Which value system will He'Atid adopt?

    ReplyDelete
  115. YD,

    i also heard that at that Q and A they mentioned how our leadership in the community has failed us.

    ReplyDelete
  116. A jacket is not just a jacket and you know it. There is so much more behind the wearing of a jacket during the week for davening. It simply is not a modern orthodox thing to require such garb. Honestly, how much of a difference is there between requiring a jacket and requiring a black hat and then perhaps even a gartel and/or bekeshe or streimel. It is very dangerous and slippery slope and that is why any school that mandates jackets is very suspect in my mind.

    December 20, 2011 1:46 PM


    exatcly you can send your kid to RYNJ where they wear a jacket and then go to the swim club when you come home. i love it :)

    ReplyDelete
  117. 1:46,

    So what *IF* He'Atid ends up a little bit to the left of RYNJ? That would be a great thing. That would mean less charedi-lite people in our community and more people who truly are MODERN. Sounds good to me. Having said the above, many of the younger couples who I know are sending to Heatid are the type who otherwise are RWMO and would have otherwise sent to RYNJ. Incidentally, I spoke to a woman from the apartments and she stated that there is no organized swinging of any sort going on there and that her husband had once been asked about it between mincha and maariv one week but that it wasn't anything official. I think the whole thing is being blown out of proportion here.

    ReplyDelete
  118. if we take Yavneh's full budget ($9.5m) and remove $0.5m of admin, and remove $0.8m of "teaching costs" (i.e. resource room, etc), then the budget becomes $8.2m. it sounds like Yavneh also has around 20 kids on average per class (695 kids divided by 9 grades divided by 4 sections each grade). if we can get 4 more kids in each room, then total students would become 839 (4 kids x 36 sections, plus 695 existing). so now we take the budget of $8.2m divided by 839 students and get a cost per student of under $10k per kid.


    based upon the numbers shown by YD, it seems like even scholarship families pay $7k. this would mean that the school needs to still raise $3k per scholarship student. if 20% need this 3K, then a scholarship fund of $500k (839 x 20% x $3k) is needed.

    Granted there are a lot of assumptions in here, some conservative, some more positive, but a quick and dirty analysis shows getting "per student cost" to be around $9k is not impossible. the real key to the financial success of any school is maximizing the classroom size. he'atid will not succeed if parents are not signing up. this is why it is so sad that there is not a serious effort to get the schools to merge - full classrooms equal lower per-student costs - it is very simple math. maybe he'atid should not exist, but even before he'atid, the existing schools have for years been operating with "less than full" classes. could you imagine how much aggregate cost can be removed from the total cost of education in BC if simply BPY was folded into Yavneh and Noam. The bigger schools would be able to add the BPY student body in its existing classrooms (maybe needing to add one class here or there), and be able to shed a very high percentage of the BPY cost structure. of course you are going to hear retorts such as "there is no room in the current buildings" - the answer is BS - to put kids in existing rooms does not impact space at all. And truthfully, even if one building is maxed out, big deal - split the campus between two buildings - is it a bit more cumbersome? yes - but definitely more cost effective than two totally separate entities. you will then hear "but the hashkafot are different" - again, BS - if a parent (BPY, Noam, Yavneh) truly have such a strong visceral reaction against the others of those 3, then that parent is off their rocker - they are all within a hair's width of each other in terms of parent body and hashkafa.


    how about we turn the conversation from how can he'atid's model work, to a conversation about why haven't the other schools actively looked to merge. i am sure he'atid would love to team up with another school - their whole goal was to bring down costs in BC, while maintaining quality. If a school was interested in making a few changes to their level of admins and services (either eliminate some or utilize technology to replace people), and have a concerted effort to load up the classrooms, i am sure they would be ecstatic.


    where is the JEFG and RCBC in pushing a merger agenda? the president of the OU wrote about this a few months ago (and he lives in BC), but of course there was no true follow through. once again our leadership are more interested in maintaining status quo, than it is in shaking things up. the bottom line is you cannot bake a cake without breaking some eggs, and the leadership is so concerned about the eggs, they forgot the need to bake a cake!

    ReplyDelete
  119. Miami Al,
    Because the majority of the crew here believes that public school and some type of a Hebrew supplement program are the equivalent of marrying a non-Jew while eating pork.

    Frankly, it is the very height of arrogance, for a people who don't use a system, never stepped foot in the building other to vote DOWN its budget, never allowed their kids to talk/play with non-Jews, to reject, despise, and denigrate a system they know only as a tax bill and random kids in the street.

    Meanwhile, the real crux of the matter is fear. They are petrified. Unable to come to grasp with the fact that their entitlement (as they see it) is inevitably going to fail. An inability to see that despite their intentions, cloistering their children, and patting themselves on the back for the ignorant / bigoted decision that they have made, there are some choices that have more than two outcomes. Similarly, there are more than two solutions as well.

    My original question on the Chump blog, was responded to with a mixture of vile racist rants, stupidity, condemnation for 'decisions' and spending patters which were machinations of their own projections on me.

    See, the hidden secret, boys and girls, is that raising children is a crapshoot, and especially a frum child. The education our children receive at home is by far the most important they will ever receive. And while all of you criticize those who choose to think differently, and send to PS or He'atid, or other, you have absolutely no idea if your son or or daughter will be in the least bit religious in 15 years, or if the 'other' kid will have generations of frum Yiddin. You have no clue! But yet you pontificate as if every kid has to live up to this random standard you project on everyone else.

    Look, I am just a hard working $150k chump, trying to raise a family the best I can in a town and religious community that denigrates anyone who isn't as wealthy, hypocritical, or a member of the lucky sperm club (made money the old fashion way).

    I look forward to seeing what the schools will look like in 5 years when all of the grandparents go on fixed income. We haven't even begun to see the upcoming difficulties.

    ReplyDelete
  120. 1:59, what you've written underscores the tragedy of the last few years. In an economic downturn, the normal and sensible course is to consolidate, not to expand. The community was working in that direction through NNJKIDS, whether it be through actual mergers (which, as you indicate, have some serious challenges) or through other joint operations and ventures (as far as the law will permit). Those efforts were a combined effort of all disparate elements within the community.

    But, then individuals decided to take matter into their own hands. First, we had one individual (rather irresponsibly) organize a Hebrew Charter school, which would not alleviate the situation for the schools and which ultimately flopped. Then, we had an individual decide to abandon his own school and the communal effort to create a new school.

    No sound principle of economics supports creation of a new school when existing schools are not at capacity and we are spinning wheels trying to make it happen. It is doomed to fail and will not help -- but only hurt -- the existing schools.

    That is what people who have raised concerns about He'Atid have been saying all along.

    ReplyDelete
  121. What's the total number of kids from Teaneck (specifically- not inc Bergenfield NM) that send to Yeshiva now?

    ReplyDelete
  122. 2:10,

    I'm happy GD did what he did when he did it. I will be saving many thousands of dollars next year alone because of him. In this dog eat dog world, it is every man for himself. I'm sorry if your overpriced legacy school is now going to have to figure out a way to lower its prices in order to compete with GD's schools but such is life!

    ReplyDelete
  123. 2:16:

    Appreciate the honesty. Now,I understand the value system He'Atid wishes to instill in its students.

    ReplyDelete
  124. 2:10 - what you fail to realize is that schools were not doing enough until he'atid arrived. Now he'atid is here and all of sudden they can lower their tuition? Amazing what some good old competition does. Oh and not to mention the fact that now all the schools think they are doing blended learning. Guess it is a proven model after all? I mean why else would BPY go so far as to change their mission statement stating how they are leveraging technology?? You guys can go on about how he'atid's model is not proven but just about every school is now trying to say that they are doing blended learning. So blended learning is good enough for a legacy school, they're just not lowering their costs and implementing it in such a way to create more efficiency.

    ReplyDelete
  125. OK, enough already. I hope He'atid works for you, good luck, G-d bless, but all of the GD nonsense makes this whole thing sound like a freakin' cult.

    ReplyDelete
  126. 159.
    I have 2 comments for u

    1. Higher math tells me that Pre k - 8th grade is 10 grades not 9 as you say, so any of your numbers you wrote after that line I just threw out the door since you started your math all wrong from the beginning.

    2. At least you have a sence of humor. You asked where the RCBC is on all of this. That my friend is very funny. The rcbc is a joke when it comes to these things.

    ReplyDelete
  127. 2:18:

    Beside the point. You fail to confront the economic argument. If it's all about "blended learning," you might want to visit some of the other schools and see how technology has become increasing a part of the program each year. We can even make GD the Czar of "blended learning" and have him help schools incorporate it (to the extent it remains an educational tool, which is all it is) into their programs.

    ReplyDelete
  128. 2:10,

    You speak as if there is leadership in the community that can dictate how everything should work. Don't give me the crap that current schools are doing stuff together. NNJKIDS simply brings in revenue - does not change cost. Big deal if schools share healthcare plans, or buy pencils in bulk. Nice try. You make it sound as if Yavneh and Noam were on the verge of signing a contract, and then all of a sudden GD stepped in and ruined everything. Nothing is stopping these schools from doing it right now, and then totally obviate the need for He'Atid.

    You cannot tell He'Atid to stop, and then do nothing. Give them a roadmap to a merger, and they most probably will be happy to join in.

    ReplyDelete
  129. Legacies can kiss my &&&. Why did I have to spend 15k on kindergarten and now this coming year incoming parents can pay a lot less That's bs. And everyone of you legacy parents should kiss GD tuches for allowing you to pay lower tuition in legacy this coming year !!!!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  130. 2:18 It doesn't take He'atid to exist for schools to figure out that technology integration is mandatory in education! Nor does it take He'Atid to exist for schools to figure out that during a recession/depression prices will have to be adjusted.

    I love how you are drawing conclusions, but the whole school is blind faith, as of right now! Don't be so condescending based on an assumption of superiority.

    ReplyDelete
  131. 2:21,

    Good point. Changing it from 9 grade levels to 10 makes the math even easier and more compelling.

    ReplyDelete
  132. YD

    How about this for a poll?

    If heatid was not in the picture would any of the legacies be lowing cost?

    1. Yes
    2. No
    3. Are you insane

    ReplyDelete
  133. Yid 1:42 - But WHY start it in the lower grades? Why not offer it as a high school level first?

    Very simple. Because schools generally grow grade by grade and use their own classes as a feeder for subsequent grades. So if they have K-2 this year, they will have K-3 next year, and the 2'nd graders move up to the 3'rd grade.

    Many parents prefer not to remove their kids from a school after having attended a few years and gotten comfortable with it.

    ReplyDelete
  134. Every parent of a younger kid at RYNJ who is benefiting from the recent changes in tuition for younger grades at RYNJ should send GD a big bottle of scotch to thank him for creating Heatid and putting downward price pressure on all the legacy schools.

    ReplyDelete
  135. Did I miss something or is GD's b-day on December 25?

    ReplyDelete
  136. "Did I miss something or is GD's b-day on December 25?"

    If he grew his hair longer maybe he would resemble JC a bit but it's hard to imagine.

    ReplyDelete
  137. YD

    How about this for a poll?

    If a family cannot afford Yeshiva in BC:

    a) Leave (short sale or foreclosure... whatever, we just don't want to hear about it, get out of here, you minuval)

    b) It's OK, might as well spend mom/dad's retirement income now (you don't have a 401k, why should they!)

    c) Send, gulp, your, {hand on eyes} kids to Public School... just shut up about it and under NO circumstances, say anything positive about it. BTW, please say no to my fake Shabbat Lunch invite.

    d) I wouldn't know, I'm doing AOK.

    e) Just do like everyone else, go broke in debt and pretend like it isn't happening.

    f) What are you still doing here... I told you to leave!

    ReplyDelete
  138. Forget about JC, he's the real thing, G-D!

    ReplyDelete
  139. Costs per student rises as the kids get older.

    The schools have VERY little benefit from integrating 10 years into one school. They "share" a Head of School, but they have principals at various levels. Therefore, if you separated Elementary from Middle School, you wouldn't need a "head" to oversee principals at each level.

    He'Atid probably has compelling math by sticking to K-4, avoiding gender separation issues, and NOT adding a middle school.

    ReplyDelete
  140. Hey YD, think u can get the RCBC to do a guest post on why they haven't done a thing about tuition

    ReplyDelete
  141. "Hey YD, think u can get the RCBC to do a guest post on why they haven't done a thing about tuition"

    The RCBC will come and do a guest post on this blog right after admins from RYNJ come on here and do the same.... Lol.

    ReplyDelete
  142. looks like sacs 2nd application period has begun. any one know whats going on?

    ReplyDelete
  143. "looks like sacs 2nd application period has begun. any one know whats going on?"

    Who cares? it is not a Yeshiva.

    ReplyDelete
  144. 258 NOTHING wrong with SACS but this blog is about yeshiva tuition

    ReplyDelete
  145. yd you ar no better then chump for allowig post like 307 to go through

    ReplyDelete
  146. Yeshiva, 314 is correct that post should not be allowed on here

    ReplyDelete
  147. When you light tonight, please have in mind He'Atid when you recite blessings with the following phrase:

    "Blessed art thou GD, our Lord, King of the Universe . . . "

    ReplyDelete
  148. YD,

    How about a poll ranking the most influential members of the BC community with respect to yeshiva tuition. Is there even a close second to GD?

    ReplyDelete
  149. Bigoted comments will be deleted. Please cut me some slack, I happen to work for a living & it may take me a few minutes to see an offensive comment and delete it.

    ReplyDelete
  150. I get the anguish about yeshiva tuition. But what's the deal with the cult of personality?

    ReplyDelete
  151. RYNJ is in a sweet spot in that it appears to have a monopoly on the holier-than-thou frum crowd. If you live in Teaneck/Bergenfield and wear a black hat to shul on Shabbos then you almost certainly send to RYNJ.

    ReplyDelete
  152. YD:

    New survey question --

    When will He'Atid merge with RYNJ?

    a) two years;
    b) three years;
    c) four years;
    d) never because He'Atid will fail.

    ReplyDelete
  153. "When will He'Atid merge with RYNJ?"

    IMHO, it wouldn't merge with RYNJ unless RYNJ moved to the left at least at little bit.

    ReplyDelete
  154. Question for non black hatters sending to Heatid. If YNJ tuition was $9K, would you send there even though it is not your hashkafa?

    ReplyDelete
  155. "If YNJ tuition was $9K, would you send there even though it is not your hashkafa?"

    My wife and I recently had this discussion. For me to sacrifice my core MO values and send to RYNJ which I do not believe espouses such core MO values, RYNJ would have to lower their tuition to about $5k per child.

    ReplyDelete
  156. it is crazy to me that people think RYNJ is so religious /right wing. there are plenty of people who are not even remotely yeshivish - cover their hair partially or not at all (for example).there is little monitoring of the dress code, so the girls dress less modestly than many in other schools. The school says it separates in 1st grade, but reading groups are co ed thru second and buses continue to be co ed. Only in this part of BC do people look at YNJ and think it is some chareidi institution.

    ReplyDelete
  157. Need to factor into the analysis as to when He'Atid fails the churn from He'Atid students needing to migrate to other schools after R. Gralla announces the separate classes policy and the school adopts GD's RYNJ principles.

    ReplyDelete
  158. http://www.thejewishweek.com/features/new_york_minute/chump_change_tuition_blogger_claims_victory

    An article about that loser chump

    ReplyDelete
  159. Wow. The Jewish Week has finally sunk to the lowest level. We know that Julie was trolling chump's blogs for quotes in the past. I guess she owes him one but what a joke.

    ReplyDelete
  160. http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/new_york/high_tech_and_high_quality

    ReplyDelete
  161. The real question is, would RYNJ take heatid in after it collapses (which seems likely)? My gut feeling is they shouldn't after GD royally screwed them (sitting on a board, taking honors all the time plotting a rival school), but they are nicer than I am so maybe they will.

    ReplyDelete
  162. I can't wait for the legacy to fall

    ReplyDelete
  163. another great chump tradition - wishing for the failure of our schools. yep - sinat chinam. mission accomplished!

    ReplyDelete
  164. chump only wished for the failure of the legacy schools to the extent necessary to allow for more affordable options to come into existence. With Heatid in the picture, chump has said numerous times that he no longer wishes for the legacy schools to fail. No need to slander the guy like that. His blog is closed. Leave it alone.

    ReplyDelete
  165. 527. Its ok for one to talk about the failure of heatid andthey didn't even open yet but one can't wishbit in a legacy?

    ReplyDelete
  166. There is also a double standard whereby any legacy can and does claim to be the "greatest" but if Heatid says that it will provide anything above a "mediocre" education than the legacy hacks get all up in arms and bash Heatid.

    ReplyDelete
  167. 5:09, are you sure he was planning He'Atid while still on the RYNJ board? Aren't board members supposed to have fiduciary duties of loyalty toward the organizations they serve? Perhaps the savior is not so pure.

    ReplyDelete
  168. "are you sure he was planning He'Atid while still on the RYNJ board?"

    What I heard is that GD tried getting RYNJ to lower their cost structure while on the board and only went and formed heatid when he realized he wasn't getting anywhere. I would be careful before you blasphemy GD with slanderous comments and innuendo.

    ReplyDelete
  169. Predicting the failure of He'Atid and wishing for it are two different things. Chump was wishing for the failure of the legacy schools way past the launch of He'Atid. Maybe he just didn't have faith that it would actually succeed so felt the need to continue to wish for the destruction of our current Torah institutes.

    ReplyDelete
  170. I think it's against the Torah to "blaspheme" G-D!!!! Not quite sure there is an injunction against "blaspheming" another human being,6:08. I take it you know that though and must, therefore, assume you are referring to GD as the divine.

    ReplyDelete
  171. In response to the only sane question above, there are approximately 3200 non-public students in K-12 in Teaneck. This includes children who attend all private schools including independent schools and all parochial schools. There are approximately 4,400 public school children in Teaneck, I believe this includes the Teaneck charter School but I'm not sure so I defer to those of you with better information.

    ReplyDelete
  172. Definition of "Blasphemy."

    blas·phe·my   /ˈblæsfəmi/ Show Spelled[blas-fuh-mee]
    noun, plural -mies.
    1. impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things.
    2. Judaism .
    a. an act of cursing or reviling God.
    b. pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) in the original, now forbidden manner instead of using a substitute pronunciation such as Adonai.
    3. Theology . the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.
    4. irreverent behavior toward anything held sacred, priceless, etc.: He uttered blasphemies against life itself.

    ReplyDelete
  173. Heatid's education will be superior to any of the legacy schools. You can take that to the bank.

    ReplyDelete
  174. Your money is safe with me. You can take to the bank.

    ReplyDelete
  175. 702 and all my savings

    ReplyDelete
  176. The Wikipedia entry on "Blasphemy" as to Judaism states:

    "Judaism

    In the third book of the Torah, Leviticus 24:16 states that he that blasphemes the name of the Lord "shall surely be put to death". See also List of capital crimes in the Torah. The Seven laws of Noah, which Judaism sees as applicable to all people, prohibit blasphemy."

    So, is the He'Atid position that anyone who questions anything GD is doing is a "blasphemer" and should be put to death?

    ReplyDelete
  177. Can anyone explain how Chabad Tenafly keeps tuition below 10k?

    ReplyDelete
  178. Just wondering - why are some posters here assuming that He'Atid's parent body is so RWMO? I didn't get that vibe from the audience at the open house and my family and our five friends who registered range from the center to the far left.

    ReplyDelete
  179. He'atid is desperate to attract RWMO but it isn't happening. You are seeing people that are buying the cool aid. Very few families from that direction are going to He'Atid. Hard to blame them given the colorful comments about the parents from the apartments and most just can't relate to chump negativity.

    ReplyDelete
  180. I would like to endorse Yechiel Rotblat's position about eliminating anonymous blogs and posts. It is all too easy for people to corrupt the discussion with ridiculous or outrageous statements when they hide behind anonymity. This change would bring a needed measure of civility to the discussion. I am not in principle opposed to a school that figures out how to offer a quality product at a much reduced price, but it appears to be the case that the leaders of Yeshivat He'Atid have refused to share their financial calculations with anybody, and it is certainly the case, as has been pointed out on this blog, that, on the face of it, the numbers don't add up. I am surprised that otherwise educated and discerning consumers seem to be signing up for a financial product on mere faith.

    ReplyDelete
  181. So how does Chabad Tenafly manage to run what sees like a full program at under 10k and many of you posters are claiming it's impossible for Heatid?

    ReplyDelete
  182. Sheldon, have you asked them? What an idiotic comment. Have you asked the people who have asked them and they all said no? Nice that you are taking your facts from annonymous members of a blog who say that they don't know the financial information. I guess if the method of asking is posting like yd did that he wonders how it is done and no one from heatid responds it must be that they haven't shared their financial information with anyone.
    And yes there are plenty of parents from the more right wing school sending to he'atid. Plenty from the less right wing also. A nice mix. Gasp. Imagine that. Both sides being able to go to school together.

    ReplyDelete
  183. I'm not a big fan of censorship but we're getting way off topic here. The blog is supposed to be about BC Yeshiva Day Schools, and the tuition crisis in particular. It's not about Chump, me or how best to moderate a blog.

    I'm working on setting up a new system for moderating comments but I haven't had time to implement it yet.

    Feel free to offer your suggestions via email but lets keep the comments section on topic.

    Thanks,
    YD

    ReplyDelete
  184. 1:22, nice calling a comment by one of the pillars of the community "idiotic." Yes, we realize, you consider anyone over 35 a legacy hack who does not understand that "blended learning" will cure all of our financial struggles and even our hashkafic differences. The reality is, however, that He'Atid will have to make choices, perhaps not while focused on the pre-k age children, but soon enough.

    These include: Whether He'Atid will be able to:

    (1) sustain a 40% tuition reduction. There has not been ample evidence that it will be able to do so. Pillars of the community, like Sheldon, are willing to consider it but you need to give them facts and proof. Why are you afraid to do so?

    (2) develop a curriculum that can meet the needs of a hashkafically diverse community. Yavneh and Moriah parents have different expectations and academic standards than those who send to RYNJ. In certain areas, they may not be dramatically different but in other they are very different. RYNJ (the institution and an increasing group within in its younger parent ranks) see MO as less than ideal, if not worse, and necessarily has a different approach to science and the humanities, never mind the way to interpret torah. You can downplay the difference as premature in early years (and perahps that is correct in early childhood) but it becomes more accute as schooling continues and is definitely an issue in middle school. Which path will He'Atid choose.

    It is not what He'Atid says/markets at its open house that answers these questions. He'Atid is, at this point, a very top down organization, inspired an run by an apparently charismatic almost revered, leader. For better or worse, his roots at in the RYNJ world, where he was a celebrated board member.

    He'Atid chose as its principal someone who has said from the get go that he is likely to make the school single sex. His frame of reference is a Long Island school and community that is more to the right than Yavneh/Moriah crowd. He may be a nice guy but he will have to make haskafic decisions in short order and will likely fall back on what is comfortable. There has also been comment on some of these blogs that he is relying on communal posekim to help him make that decision and it is well know that the posekim he refers to are not enamored with the Moriah/Yavneh approach.

    Pay heed to Sheldon when he advises about being a "discerning customer." You would be discerning where you to buy a home, a car or an expensive Chanukah gift. You'd be wise to be discerning in selecting a school for your children.

    ReplyDelete
  185. 6:59 - all the more dissapointing when a pillae of the community makes idiotic statements. Who is he to think only he can make wise choices? Parents went to the open house, met with the board, met with rabbi gralla and made their decisions. Not only parents with children in school for the first time but parents with kids currently in other schools. Of course He'atid will have to prove itself. And hopefully its existence will force other schools that have been coasting for a while on what they do and what they charge to prove themselves to a public with options. But those are your thoughts. His comment was that Heatid has refused to share its financial calculations with anyone and that is why it won't work. First it is false - they have shared to parents who have asked and second what reasonable person makes a blanket statement like that. What is his proof?

    ReplyDelete
  186. Sheldon knows more than a little something about starting and sustaining a school. Not quite sure why the rah rah He'Atid crowd would not want to convince him of the need for a new school that benefits the community. Even if they belive that all that Sheldon and other have built has been misguided, they might want to learn from the supposed "legacy hacks" how to work for the good of the entire community not just for momentary individual self gratification. The economic question remains: Why the need for another school when five already exist and not all five are at capacity?

    ReplyDelete
  187. "Why the need for another school when five already exist and not all five are at capacity?"

    Because the existing 5 schools are RIPOFFS!

    If only all questions in life were as easy as the one posed above.

    ReplyDelete
  188. "You'd be wise to be discerning in selecting a school for your children."

    I'm saving many thousands of dollars next year. If Heatid is a disaster then my kid goes back to legacy the following year and I have thousands extra in the bank. If Heatid ends up being a great school (which I fully expect to happen) then my child continues going there and I save many thousands of dollars a year year after year.

    The above is what they call a "no-lose" proposition. The only way I lose is if Heatid is so bad next year that it screws up my child for life having attended it for just one year. I kind of doubt anyone really thinks that is going to happen. So all you hacks continue talking and talking and bashing while I take my thousands of dollars and go put them in the bank to pay for the leaky roof I have and save for retirement and overall have less stress in my house.

    ReplyDelete
  189. 750- is sheldon sending his kids to grades prek-1? If not that is probably why Heatid has not spent time convincing him. He'atid is rightfully busy addressing the questions and issues of the parent body. Has he approached them with questions?Also - convince him of what? The He'atid has shown the budget to people? Here you go: I am a parent sending to He'atid - I saw the budget and they answered my questions on the finances.

    ReplyDelete
  190. Who is Sheldon Chanales?

    If he is not part of the younger generation that will benefit from Heatid then there is no reason for Heatid to address his questions or share anything with him unless he is considering making a donation to them. This is just my opinion.

    ReplyDelete
  191. It's rather comical that the He'Atid crowd has no idea who Sheldon is or what he has accomplished for BC Jewish education. Of course, the 20 and 30 year olds know best what is good for Jewish education in BC. Go at by yourself and for yourself without the approval and at the expense of everyone else even those who have given so much to the community. That appears to be the ethic of this new school. Frightening to think of what the "chesed clubs" will be like at this new school.

    ReplyDelete
  192. "It's rather comical that the He'Atid crowd has no idea who Sheldon is or what he has accomplished for BC Jewish education."

    Has he accomplished anything related to affordable education? If so, please tell me which school that has affordable education that he can take credit for? I don't know this man so it is a serious question. If there is an affordable school that he helped found please let me and my friends know about it.

    ReplyDelete
  193. heard of at least 6 families that are double registered at heatid and other legacies.

    Heatids model is based on full classes and assumes they will have a waitling list at all times to just plug in new kids when someone de-registers or for natural attrition. It will be interesting to see how they handle the surprises they may get in april/may - when their next tuition payment is due.

    ReplyDelete
  194. "heard of at least 6 families that are double registered at heatid and other legacies."

    Big deal. A few parents hedged their bets after what happened with SACS last year. You don't think Heatid is aware that some are double registering. Trust me they know this and it is built into their projections.

    Heatid knows that they will be cash flow negative for the first X number of years just like the legacy schools were. If and when Heatid has a good first couple of years the waiting list will be insane. I don't care if you believe me or not - just wait and see what happens.

    ReplyDelete
  195. "Heatid knows that they will be cash flow negative for the first X number of years just like the legacy schools were."

    is this what he community really needs - another cash flow negative school that depends heavily on outside donations?

    Why is this any better than "scholarship leeches". Heatid's whole parent body will basically be leeching from the community that is heavily subsidizing their cost.

    so in effect, tuition is low because costs are low - tuition is low because of heavy financial backing.

    There ya go - how does heatid do it - they don't - they are just riding high on the influx of cash now.

    ReplyDelete

Please choose a screen name. You will still be anonymous.

Note: Only a member of this blog may post a comment.