The Orthodox Forum of Edison/Highland Park
Spring 5772 Series
For more information, please email hpedisonorthodoxforum@gmail.com.
Motzei Shabbat, March 3, 2012, 8:00 pm
Cong. Ohr Torah – 48 Edgemount Road,
Edison, NJ 08817
Edison, NJ 08817
Affordability of Yeshiva Education
Dr. Scott Goldberg is currently the Director, Institute for University‐School Partnership at Yeshiva University. He is an Associate Professor at the Azrieli Graduate School of Jewish Education & administration where he teaches courses in Quantitative Research, Classroom Assessment, and Differentiated Instruction. Dr. Goldberg will address the education affordability issue from a national perspective.
Dr. Jenny Mandelbaum has worked in education for 30 years. She has been on the faculty at Rutgers University for the past 24 years, and is currently a Professor in the Department of Communication, where she served as Department Chair from 2003‐2006. She also serves as a member of the Rabbi Pesach Raymon Yeshiva (RPRY) Board of Education. Dr. Mandelbaum will serve as the Session Chair for the forum.
Josh Pruzansky is currently NJ Regional Director of Public Policy at the Institute for Public Affairs (IPA), the public policy arm of the Orthodox Union (OU). He previously served as Director of Agudath Israel of New Jersey, in which capacity he directed their Trenton‐based policy and advocacy. Mr. Pruzansky will address the education affordability issue from a state perspective.
Abe Schwartzbard has been a member of the RPRY Executive board and Board of Directors for over 20 years. He served as President of RPRY for 9 years. He has worked on many of the school budgets, tuition setting, and school policy for most of the years that he has served on the Board. Mr. Schwartzbard will address the education, affordability issue from a local perspective in a current and historical context.
The panelists will discuss the costs
associated with a yeshiva education and potential solutions to the crisis.
associated with a yeshiva education and potential solutions to the crisis.
The Orthodox Forum gladly accepts season sponsorships ($200 recommended). Please send your tax deductible check, made out to Congregation Ohr Torah Gemach Fund, to Henry Lerner, 1 Celler Road, Edison, NJ 08817.
For more information, please email hpedisonorthodoxforum@gmail.com
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Robert · 685 weeks ago
JS (hello) · 685 weeks ago
HP resident · 685 weeks ago
1) Vote and lobby to get government funding for incremental things
2) Find new ways to tax the same people. An additional fee with shul membership like they do in Bergen county. Get people to leave money to the schools in their wills. IMHO, the math does not work for either of these.
3) Our schools are already running as cheaply as possible.
4) Alternative models are evil. They steal money from our schools.
As much as this topic is important to me and I am a fan of the orthodox forum, I may skip this. The only interesting part will be the questions at the end.
Mark · 685 weeks ago
CJ Srullowitz · 685 weeks ago
Barring a miraculous turn of events in the legislature, The ONLY solution is the formation of a Kehillah - not just a fund, but an actual Kehillah, whereby tuition is replaced by dues. This will allow education to be paid (mostly) with pre-tax dollars instead of after-tax dollars. It remains the only real solution.
The only thing standing in its way is the acceptance of 85% of the community. This is the put your money where your mouth is moment.
Mark · 685 weeks ago
If "dues" are proportional to income, this is another way of saying "tax the rich" (i.e. have the rich pay part of my tuition bill).
CJ Srullowitz · 685 weeks ago
anon613 · 685 weeks ago
Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 685 weeks ago
Because then our kids wouldn't be able to compete with kids from Public School, which gets money from everyone, not just those with school-age kids.
-YD
JS (hello) · 685 weeks ago
The problem is people want to spend on extras, not necessities. If you look at what is driving up costs, it's the extras. This is why the educational product is no different today than it was 10 years ago even though the costs have skyrocketed since then,
2) The other problem is we're not willing to set up a "community school" which is no frills and a "private school" which is loaded with extras. Every school has to offer the same services as the others regardless of ability to pay. It's a phenomenal waste of communal resources all to make sure no one feels "bad" about themselves. It's a multi-million dollar ego stroking and self-esteem boost so we can all pretend there's no underclass or wealthy elites among us, just Jews.
CJ Srullowitz · 685 weeks ago
JS (hello) · 685 weeks ago
Why don't they try this in Elizabeth? It's the closest thing to a Kehilah system in the tri-state area that I know of.
YD, Rabbi Teitz was gracious enough to post on Chump's blog. Maybe you could ask him to guest post on the Kehilah issue?
CJ Srullowitz · 685 weeks ago
anon613 · 685 weeks ago
Out of all the people posting on the blog, I am shocked that you are equating cost with performance. I am also not sure what we are "competing" with public school kids for, or what the focus of the competition will be. The range of money spent on a per-student basis in public schools around the US range from $5k to $18k. I am positive there is a fair representation in top universities from all 50 states, so simply looking at how much we spend has no bearing on success. You also should know better that there are tremendous success stories of schools - like Rocketship - that are producing superior outcomes at a cost of less than $6k per kid. Not saying that $6k is the right number, but simply pointing out that Bergen County public school kids are not 3 times better than Rocketship kids.
Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 685 weeks ago
As far as cutting back, I'd be ok with losing Art, Music, Gym, Psychologist & Enrichment & increasing class sizes to 28 in order to cut costs. I think that could cut down costs by maybe 20%. But look at the polls on the right. Most people are not even ok with that.
-YD
JS (hello) · 685 weeks ago
A lot of that $18k/kid has to do with expenses yeshivas simply don't have like special needs, sports, ESL, teacher's unions, etc.
Besides, if yeshiva parents were really concerned with their kids competing for jobs with public school kids, they'd be looking to save money on the Judaics side and boost the secular education. The exact opposite is what's happening. They kids aren't competing for jobs over gemara or parsha knowledge, they're competing over math and science education. But the solutions for costs are always more along the lines of "have the kids do math online" while the schools hire another fun, cool, young rebbe for the kids to be best friends forever with.
Your point about not being willing to sacrifice anything is spot on.
Also, I think you must be the 1st one to point out that public school kids are actually intelligent, hard-working individuals who should be taken seriously when it comes to future competition for jobs.
Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 685 weeks ago
JS (hello) · 685 weeks ago
Certainly try to raise money from what whatever sources are available. I don't think anyone is really against that idea. I think the opposition has more to do with the idea simply being impractical, unlikely, or not substantial enough to make a meaningful difference.
In terms of cutting cost, would you ever support online learning for Hebrew subjects and firing a bunch of rabbis? For example, mishna is taught in computer labs with online coursework with 60 kids and 1 rabbi supervising, so 2 additional rabbis are not needed. Would you support that system for History?
What cuts, if any, would you support from the Judaics side? Or should all cuts or improved efficiencies be on the secular side and/or extracurriculars?
JS (hello) · 685 weeks ago
Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 685 weeks ago
It does sound like some people, such as Anon613, are opposed to raising any money from sources other than tuition and that the problem should only be tackled on the spending side.
As far as using technology to cut costs, I would be in favor of it for all subjects, including Hebrew subjects, as long as it works. Right now there is not that much online content for Hebrew subjects. There is much more available for secular subjects from institutions like the Khan Academy. Let's see how He'atid does this year with 1 1/2 or so hours of online learning for Kindergarten & 2 hours for first grade.
What other cuts do you propose we make from the Judaic side? Perhaps we don't need the Principals to be Rabbis. i bet it would be less expensive to have a regular teacher be the principal. Even GF, a woman! according to the poll i did most would favor it. I was going to do a post about that but I never got around to it.
Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 685 weeks ago
Here's an article about his contribution to Chump's blog in case anyone missed it: http://njjewishnews.com/article/6267/speaking-of-...
JS (hello) · 685 weeks ago
As for a woman principal, Susan Dworken was principal at JKHA for decades and did a very good job by all accounts I've ever heard. Maybe that was possible "back then" and we're too frum for it now. I believe she's retiring or already retired. She came from Solomon Schecter if I'm remembering correctly (though I doubt that's publicized anymore).
To that point, she used to be principal of the entire school. Over time (and with the addition of a high school) many, many administrators were added. They went from 1 administrator for K-8 to 9 administrator (7 if you don't count the 2 finance people). They actually list their administrators on their website. So, that's a way to cut costs right there - that's 8 additional administrative salaries.
I would propose something a bit more radical, but I doubt it would garner much approval. I'd propose cutting back a lot of the Jewish education in younger years and pushing it into the shuls and Shabbat/Sunday programs. In the younger years I'd do Hebrew as a language to get the kids fluent by 5th grade and in 5th grade I'd start serious Jewish education. Before that they can do holidays, parsha, etc. in these other non-yeshiva programs. If you think about it, there's not a lot of actual LEARNING before 5th grade anyways. I know we talk about davening and navi and chumash, but a lot of that is just rote memorization and playtime dressed up as learning. Let the kids become fluent in Hebrew and they'll breeze through whatever they "missed" K-4. You save 5 years of Judaics staff and I bet the educational product would be better since you have Hebrew fluency so you don't have to waste time in class translating everything and using Artscrolls.
guest · 685 weeks ago
Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 685 weeks ago
If you would only teach Hebrew to the K-5 set why send them to a private school at all. Better off sending them to a Hebrew immersion charter school. Unfortunately we don't have a decent one in the works in BC so you'd have to move to Edison or Florida.
Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 685 weeks ago
Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 685 weeks ago
I'll bet you JS caves & sends his kids to Yeshiva Day School like everyone else in his shul. Let him vent a little bit.
JS (hello) · 685 weeks ago
The idea I proposed is not public school, it's private yeshiva with 5 years of less staff to bring costs down. It's not a Hebrew language charter school either - the kids can daven and discuss Shabbos and yom tov and Hashem and such. They can make religious projects during art class and sing religious songs in music class. You can't do that in a charter.
So, again, respond to the arguments.
As for me and yeshiva, I really don't see how it's relevant to your situation, but if it makes you feel better to postulate about my desire to destroy yeshivas or whether I'll send my own children to yeshiva, go for it.
Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 685 weeks ago
-YD
JS (hello) · 685 weeks ago
My idea was more along the lines of rabbis in the community and/or community members and/or YU students and/or high school students teaching parsha, dinim, navi, etc. in a more informal group setting. This isn't rocket science. If the community actually cared about setting up a program like this it could be very effective and something kids would enjoy attending. There are already Shabbos learning groups in the community for school-age children.
tesyaa · 685 weeks ago
I don't think it would be proportional to income. But it would be about 20-30K per family.
This would apply to everyone who is part of the Orthodox community. Retirees? Widows? Widowers? Singles above what age?
The idea is to spread the cost. Once you start making any exceptions (for the widow on a fixed income, for the single 27 year old woman working as a social worker who just does not have $20-$30K after taxes to give), the model starts to fall apart.
The only way a kehilla fund works is if it's proportionate to income, and when you go there you hear the cries of socialism.
tesyaa · 685 weeks ago
It would need to be proportionate to income, and that's where cries of "socialism" are heard.
CJ Srullowitz · 685 weeks ago
Shul dues aren't tied to income, and that seems to work out fine. People with more, give more. And do so gladly. And are honored for the privilege.
Furthermore, the "system," as it now stands isn't proportionate to income. The wealthy family with three kids has the same tuition bill as the middle- or low-income family . So no reason to change that. The fact is: Everyone's tuition bill will go down from where it is now.
I would propose the tax apply to every married couple starting at 25-65 (oldest spouse). At 65, you graduate to lifetime membership. Singles would get a discounted rate. Instead of scholarships, you will have people who "can't afford" the kehillah tax. The kehillah will have to have guidelines for dealing with this. Perhaps they can "pay" with services. It would have to be worked out.
The kehillah tax would cover: Yeshiva K-8 (possibly 12); shul; mikvah; eiruv; local kashrus supervision; rabbinical court; outreach; charitable projects such as (in BC) Tomche Shabbos, Project Ezrah.
Most of these institutions would do their own fundraising, but would get a stipend from the Kehillah. This will help "bulletproof" the tax deductibility of the "tax" (so that it's not seen purely as a tuition play).
Miami Al · 685 weeks ago
remom · 685 weeks ago
How many Orthodox Jews actually give a tenth of their income to the shul or community each year? We don't - even when one factors in costs of JDS and such, we don't come close. I think we need to take a good hard look at ourselves and ask whether we live up the supposed standards we espouse on multiple fronts.
Guest · 662 weeks ago
80k in after tax dollars total tuition expense is far more than 10% of income, unless of course you make $1mm annually, in which case, would you consider adopting me and my family? :-)