Monday, January 14, 2013

Guest Post: JFS – 3 Years In

Four years ago we decided to consider educational options that wouldn’t leave us broke or asking for money from others. This was prompted, in part, by the arrival of our fourth child (who is now 5 ½). We stumbled upon JFS, mostly because we casually knew Uri and Devra Gutfreund, who started sending their children to JFS that year. Uri found JFS during a failed attempt to start a low cost school in Bergen County. JFS has a 50+ year track record, and it was Uri’s benchmark for low cost schools. I have posted from time to time about JFS on this blog and others, but as we head into Yeshiva break week, I thought it would be appropriate to follow up.

Educational Quality
I cannot stress enough how impressed we have been with the quality of education JFS provides. Generally speaking, this is “old-school” education. Teachers command their rooms – there aren’t multiple teachers to hand off to, so teachers who can’t control their students don’t last long at JFS. While there are smartboards, and there is a computer lab for assessing progress in math and reading, this is not HeAtid. It’s certainly not Noam, either--the educational philosophy is less “the centrality of the child,” and more, “pay attention in class and do your homework.” The religious subjects are taught much the same way; when you’re learning Torah, you’re learning Torah. I’ve seen some schools that try to integrate Torah into the secular subjects as well, JFS doesn’t explicitly do that.

We have three very different children at the school. We were told by a local school that one child might have learning disabilities and that intervention might be required. JFS evaluated this child and concluded that all the child needed was firm expectations. This child is now in the middle of three tracked classes and is performing well. Another child is incredibly bright but has difficulty socializing. We have been impressed by the combination of educational discipline and understanding that has allowed this child to succeed. Finally, one child is incredibly bright and socializes easily. You’d expect this child to thrive anywhere, and that’s certainly been the case at JFS. We’d like this child challenged more, but JFS’s tracking system has him in the highest class and unless we homeschooled him, we doubt he’d do better anywhere else. JFS has been slightly harder for him than his previous school – especially in Hebrew, where JFS’s standards are simply higher. (There is a substantial base of Israelis at JFS, and the Hebrew language classes are beefed up accordingly.)

Other Benefits
It’s hard to quantify this precisely, but we have also found that JFS kids are simply nicer and (slightly) less materialistic than BC kids. There are parents who are lawyers and accountants, but also parents who are union plumbers and auto mechanics. JFS has a diverse parent body in other ways, too – Ashkenazim, Sefardim, various shades of Modern Orthodoxy, and even a few families who are not fully religious (yet). We consider this exposure a major plus. It also means that while JFS gets some of its Rabbeim from RW areas just like BC schools do, the Rabbeim have to be more open minded to teach at JFS.

Because the school day is shorter for younger grades and it doesn’t make sense to run two separate buses to BC in the afternoon, the younger kids have free, teacher-supervised after-care. This means that a) they get their homework done before coming home, and b) JFS’s hours are far more working-parent friendly. Our kids leave the house at 7:15 AM and return around 5:10 PM.

How They Do It
JFS keeps costs low in a variety of ways. They have a lot less administrative overhead. They pay lower teacher salaries – many of the teachers are supplementing public school pensions, and JFS is competing with Brooklyn for teachers, where salaries are lower still (and you might not get paid at all). JFS has fewer teachers per classroom, no rent expenses (the building was paid off), and shares expenses and facilities with RJJ, the more right wing school in Staten Island. JFS/RJJ is the only example I can think of in a major metropolitan area where MO and RW cooperate in this way. Achdut/Achdus at work. It’s amazing. Finally, New York State provides more resources (secular textbooks, the school nurse) than New Jersey, which helps keep costs down, too.

How Much it Costs Us
Tuition at JFS for Staten Island residents is a little over $9,000 all-in for K-8. Most JFS students live in Staten Island, but the local community is not growing as quickly as it once was, and JFS decided to reach out to families in Brooklyn and Bergen County to fill classrooms and round out the student body. To do so, JFS initially capped tuition – all-in – at $8,500 per child for Bergen County families including door-to-door transportation. This year it raised tuition to $9,000; door-to-door transportation and all fees are still included. (JFS sets tuition even lower for Brooklyn families – many Brooklyn schools offer little in the way of secular education, but tuition is cheap). There are no building funds, dinner fees, security fees, etc. However, there are still $5/$10/$18 things throughout the year for trips and whatnot. These used to drive me bonkers when I was paying thousands more for tuition/add-ons and STILL had to pony up for a trip to the matzah factory, now I just laugh and write a check.

Drawbacks
We are sending our children over a bridge to another state when there are five perfectly good – and in some ways great – local schools. But the commuting time from our house is not a big deal. Ironically, our 5 year old attends HeAtid in Bergenfield, and he is on the bus for 50 minutes each direction, plus we need to take him to/from the bus stop. Our three kids going to Staten Island are picked up at our doorstep and are on the JFS bus for 40 minutes each way. There is usually one day a year when the Turnpike is closed for a tractor trailer accident and it takes over an hour; even the worst Rt. 4 backups aren’t as bad because you can route around them. But that’s really rare.

The bigger problem is that we have to drive to JFS for parent-teacher conferences and siddur plays; Bergenfield, Englewood, or River Edge is much closer. Birthday parties are not as big a deal as we feared; after a certain age, there just aren’t that many of them. We do drive to Staten Island or Brooklyn every once in a while for play dates or joint projects, but this is not a regular thing. Getting to Staten Island on a Sunday morning is a breeze; getting to Brooklyn… ugh. Our oldest is getting to bar mitzvah season, and we’re starting to realize that transportation for that may be an issue. It can be a problem in reverse, too: for a recent bat mitzvah, one BC-JFS family rented a bus to transport their child’s friends to the celebration here. That move ensured all of child’s friends were able to come, and the family considered the $300 bus rental a part of their tuition. We also provide each of our kids with Nintendo units for the bus as compensation for their “longer” commute; that’s basically a cost of JFS, too.

Socially, all three of our children maintain strong friendships with local kids from shul/camp/prior school. In our shul, parents send to a variety of local schools (plus Breuer’s and JFS), so it’s not like they always associated with the same kids on Shabbat as they did during the week. And, again, ironically, our HeAtid child does not have any school friends within walking distance on Shabbat, either.

The biggest drawback is that JFS does not have a high school. From what I can tell, our local high schools are amazing, but they are quite a jump in cost from what I’m paying for elementary school, and we’re suffering from much greater sticker shock than if we’d been paying $14K – 18.5K all along. Yikes.

Q&A
I’m not traveling this week and I’m happy to answer any questions in the comments. –Avi Greengart

Comments (61)

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Thanks for sharing. I wonder if any BC schools are considering the WDS approach to combating competition and lack of sustainability. I know tuition freezes and $100 reductions are a start, but can we get more progress than just a freeze?
I just wanted to thank Avi for this post. We too switched our children to JFS this year, initially for the cost, but have been so pleased with the academics. JFS has welcomed us to their school and we had the pleasure of our first siddur ceremony at JFS yesterday. Of course I wish my children went to school locally, but not at the cost of financial security.
hi avi just wondering why you are sending your youngest to he atid if you are so happy with jfs and the bus ride is longer.
2 replies · active 635 weeks ago
End Welfare's avatar

End Welfare · 637 weeks ago

JFS is a great school. I know many parents of younger children who would almost certainly have sent there had it not been for Heatid opening up locally. JFS has a really long track record and proves (as does Heatid) that you don't need to rip off the hard-working parents of Bergen County, Staten Island etc. in order to provide a great education.
End Welfare's avatar

End Welfare · 637 weeks ago

Most families in the community with at least 2 or 3 kids in day school probably gross in the $175k- $275k income range. There are some above that range (Winthrops) and probably sizable amount below that range who are no doubt on tuition assistance (or getting money from parents or whatever....)
Zev. It does seem insane to be sending kids to a different state when Bergen County has so many schools. But you have to do what you have to do and if sending them elsewhere works and is the best option currently available, then why not?
Zev -- even ignoring the question of whether one can extrapolate from a theoretical microcosm which has a 6% rate and apply it to BC, there is another flaw. Maybe one CAN make 250 and be observant, but should choose to have a lower number of kids (maybe 2 or 3). Maybe one can earn 250k and be observant and realize that summer camp, winter vacation, going away for pesach, buying creature comforts, eating in restaurants every week etc are poor choices for how to use money. Maybe earning 250k doesn't mean you don't have to live frugally and clip coupons is school is important.

I have 2 kids in yeshiva and we get by on much less than 250k for a bunch of reasons. When the kids started school and I was making less than I make now, we didn't go places and didn't do stuff. No shame in that. We scrimped and saved. Now, things have changed a bit and we are able to spend a bit more. We still don't approach 250k and we still have to make smart decisions. And we still haven't had to sacrifice our observance.
1 reply · active 637 weeks ago
full paying's avatar

full paying · 637 weeks ago

the biggest problem with our system is it rewards people who earn below $100k and will never be able to be self sufficient. those people are given financial assistance and permitted to send to whatever local yeshiva they chose while those who earn bw 100-250 are forced to consider jfs and he atid. full paying parents are not thrilled with either having to ship their kids to SI or try a new start up school when those who arent paying their own way can go wherever they want.
2 replies · active 636 weeks ago
full paying - why do you care what other people are doing? I do what I think is right and try to ignore the other stuff.
Does anyone know what the threshold is at a typical Bergen County yeshiva to get a scholarship? We gross $147,500. Does it pay for me to even bother applying?
1 reply · active 637 weeks ago
What is the threshold for receiving a scholarship?
full paying's avatar

full paying · 637 weeks ago

EZF no chance. i think if you have 1 kid in school you have to earn under $75k and 2 kids in school under $100k
1 reply · active 637 weeks ago
full paying's avatar

full paying · 637 weeks ago

we applied and we told to come back when we have 4 kids in yeshiva and to ask our parents for help now. not exactly the response we were hoping for. apparently ask your parents is a good solution for the schools.
1 reply · active 637 weeks ago
Day school parent's avatar

Day school parent · 637 weeks ago

People don't realize what a horrible experience it is to apply for scholarship. Boards and admins are all proud of how much money they give in scholarship, as if that should make them feel better. The fact is, asking for scholarship is a horribly degrading experience. And then for a grown adult to be told to ask their parents??? Disgusting.
End Welfare's avatar

End Welfare · 637 weeks ago

The legacy schools charge high tuition and then force you to beg for scholarship or take handouts from your parents so you end up not even feeling like a man. Forget these schools. Look elsewhere.
Actually, we applied for a scholarship at a local school and no one was rude or mean or made us feel like beggars. We were denied, but still, we did not have the same experience.
1 reply · active 637 weeks ago
EZF - why are you asking? If you feel like you are being frugal and still cannot make ends meet, then apply for scholarship. They will either say yes or no. But I do not believe there is an exact threshold. Each case is looked at individually.
Struggling's avatar

Struggling · 637 weeks ago

EZF - when we were making $180K with 3 tuitions, we were given a break of $9K total. And we were told to stop putting money into retirement if we decide to ask again. It was humiliating. If their MO was to get us off the rolls, it worked. WE went into debt rather than ask again it was so bad.
I have heard, assuming you don't have any real extenuating circumstance (ex. caring for elderly parents, family illness with high medical bills) and live moderately, the schools expect that you can pay at minimum about 10% of your gross salary towards tuition. That's why many families with just 1 child in Yeshiva are denied aid.
firefly - that doesn't make sense. I do not earn 620K, but I was paying 62K to a Yeshiva. What am I missing?
1 reply · active 637 weeks ago
Struggling's avatar

Struggling · 637 weeks ago

well i should hope so. if you're earning $160K you shouldn't be asking for scholarship!
Struggling's avatar

Struggling · 637 weeks ago

with one tuition - commenting on firefly's example
believe it or not, people are....

the new generation feels they are entitled to every luxury in life and heavy retirement savings. Yeshiva is last on their list and they feel they are entitled to this "subsidy".
full paying's avatar

full paying · 637 weeks ago

i think most people care what other people are doing especially if they are partially subsidizing it. i wish i didnt but i would be lying if i said otherwise. most parents receiving large hand outs would never consider he atid or jfs only a full paying parent would.
1 reply · active 637 weeks ago
full paying's avatar

full paying · 637 weeks ago

its much closer to 20% than 10%. we were denied and tuition was about 15% for us. we didnt appeal or go any further once they said ask your parents we were done. i think jfs is going to be a really tough sell especially when avi admits to being really happy there but keeping his younger child in he atid even though for 1st grade he will be in same building as his other children. He atid will go up to 2nd grade next year most parents with grade 3& up wouldnt consider pulling their kids out and shipping to SI.
Adam Smith's avatar

Adam Smith · 636 weeks ago

To ZMG and others looking for global solutions to The yeshiva tuition problem.

Though not intended for political lesson here, there are similarities in the yeshiva tuition problem (high for some) and global economics. The price for yeshiva tuition will go down when customers show a demand for a product that costs less like JFS or Ha'atid.

Legacies and WDS seemed to have started reacting to an increase demand for lower tuition. The fact that legacies and others didn't do it for higher reasons like to do what you think is the "right " thing is irrelevant. In fact, there is much evidence that tuition went down ONLY because of lower cost customer demand.

As to why the scholarship system perverts downward pressure on price, I'll leave it to a real economist out there. Miami Al, you paying attention and can comment here?
Crazy Reality's avatar

Crazy Reality · 636 weeks ago

I think Zev Mo Green has made some very valid points. However, reality is scary. I heard a "He-atid" spin-off was going to open in Silver Spring this year but folded before it opened. I heard one was planned for West Orange last year, but folded before it opened. Hearing some people saying there are some issues already in Westchester. Clearly, BC is a unique situation...with such a large MO population, and large scholarships handed out to people in need, many are happy with the existing system. The middle 20-30% [not on scholarship], but not earning 300k or 400k are squeezed into a terrible situation. Go to a school with many items cut out from typical programs, to meet a price point, travel out of town, but still struggle, or send to legacy and financial ruin your family. Zev may be on to many good ideas.
1 reply · active 636 weeks ago
Peyton Manning's avatar

Peyton Manning · 636 weeks ago

The tuition crisis is real, and people here have made some good points. Having lived in Teaneck for over 20 years, I can tell you that the schools grew in response to the parent body, and not vice versa. In other words, parents demanded certain things like enrichment, lower class sizes and the like, and the schools responded. Teachers are not getting rich off the school. The average teacher's compensation at a yeshiva is less than a comparable public school teacher. Without free tuitions, they could never make ends meet.

IMO, the crisis needs to be addressed at the top. There needs to be meetings of the community leaders to address these issues. Why this never happened? Because enough community members have not demanded it. As the crisis gets more acute, and young people can no longer afford to live here, you can bet this will happen. Instead of venting on this blog, we need to get organized!
2 replies · active 636 weeks ago
I was struck by a few wonderful points expressed by the poster re JFS - first, the standards are higher. How wonderful it is to hear of high standards and no nonsense classrooms. When children learn that they are expected to sit at their desk and pay attention - magically, the need for assistant teachers disappear. Hurrah on that count. Second, to learn that the children at JFS seem to be nicer is fantastic - I'm thrilled to hear this as many of the students I've met at the JDS aren't much to write home about. Why are these two issues NOT mentioned in any of the response posts? I think that this fact says a great deal about the BC MO community - maybe there is much to be learned from the community at JFS.
Just saying's avatar

Just saying · 636 weeks ago

zevmo - I'm sympathetic to your situation but don't understand why you don't do something about it rather than just posting here. He'atid has shown that there is demand for a low cost school and have proven that you can start a new school up relatively quickly. You don't need fancy marketing or blended learning to make this work. You don't need "community leaders" or hedge fund managers or junk bond salesmen. You need 20 children, 2 teachers and maybe one administrator. You could start in 2 empty rooms in a local shul, get parents to volunteer, charge $2,000 less than He'Atid and you will be golden. You will probably even attract people already in He'Atid who are there for the low tuition. For children under 6 years old people are willing to take a chance. Longer term perhaps you do a cooperative model to keep costs low, perhaps you locate 15 minutes away over the NY state line so you can get better financial support from the government. There are lots of ways of making a no frills school work, you just need to be willing to put the effort in and not rely on others to solve the problem for you.
2 replies · active 636 weeks ago
Just Saying,

Have you done any of the math on your proposal? 20 children paying $2k less than He'atid brings in less then $140k per year. Less than $120K if you are talking about pre-k. Does that pay for an administrator, 2 teachers, rent, insurance, supplies, etc?
Just saying's avatar

Just saying · 636 weeks ago

YD - I haven't done the math but given what you laid out I actually believe it is more than doable especially if parents are willing to volunteer. If needed get a modest amount of money raised from the community and it is more than doable. We can debate it or someone can try and make it happen. Same debate went on for years about things like He'Atid but now it exists. If there is demand and a desire to make it happen then people should do so.
Avi Greengart's avatar

Avi Greengart · 636 weeks ago

Just Saying - your economics don't work unless you're suggesting communal home schooling (which should be even less expensive in dollar terms). However, that's complicated to set up - simply home schooling your own children is far simpler - and requires parents who can do it. There are decided advantages to home schooling besides cost savings, and there are online resources now that make it more accessible than ever. That's certainly an option for families with insufficient income to cover $9K/year/child, but who can cover their other expenses and have one parent willing and able to teach. Accepting scholarship money is another option. Moving somewhere where the cost of living is lower may be a solution for some (though MO day school tuition is pretty high everywhere in the U.S.). Aliyah is an option for families of all income levels - it brings all sorts of other variables into play, but it's a mitzvah. From his previous posts, ZevMo would like to see public school options with formal supplemental Torah learning programs on the table. I don't think that's ideal - I like the day school model - but I agree that the community needs that option as well.

In the meantime, the purpose of this post was to alert parents in BC seeking lower cost options for grades 1-8 that JFS should be in the conversation. JFS has a proven track record, it's not as far away as you think it is (and door-to-door transportation is included), and our family is now midway through our third school year with JFS and can report that the education and overall experience there has really been wonderful.
Guestonymous's avatar

Guestonymous · 636 weeks ago

Avi - you are providing your children with a superior education at a lower price than BCS. Thank you for sharing. Perhaps when the modest rebound in the housing market reaches Teaneck, it will allow for some of us to move and revive the Staten Island kehillah as well.
until a teaneck talmud torah is formed as an after school option for elementary students in public school people should be aware there is a fabulous hebrew school being run out of chabad in tenafly. There are already a number of frum teaneck children there. I believe that program with perhaps a private tutor 1 day per week could be a viable option.
Haha, it's a good thing that teachers who can’t control their students (after translation, cannot kept the attention of the students) don’t last long at JFS, I think this is a good measure which a lot of schools should take it into consideration !
We all believe that the future of any country lies on how well developed is the education system of that country. Hereby, according to the statistics of the education system in our country, there are approximately 500 million people who are below the poverty line and hardly have access to education. There are so many mind sets that pose a hindrance to the Indian Education System. Hence, pursuing a professional degree isn’t that important, but primary education, is a basic necessity for the society.

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