Yeshiva Sanity: Yavneh Reduces Scholarship Allocation

Monday, May 21, 2012

Yavneh Reduces Scholarship Allocation

Yavneh sent out a letter announcing that they had to cut their scholarship allocation for the 2nd year in a row and telling parents who want to apply to submit their documents to www.yeshivaaid.com.

We should all realize that when we call for schools to freeze or lower tuition it often means that those who can least afford it have to sacrifice a little more. But the fact of the matter is that very few of us can afford any increases.

Other schools are considering deferring some obligations rather than simply writing them off, in the hopes that some parents will be able to make the payments in the future when they are in better financial situations. That's also a good idea though I doubt too many parents will make those payments in the future especially if their kids graduate before their situations improve.

While asking for all of this documentation (W-2's, mortgage statements, etc.) is necessary, I think the schools really need to visit the houses of the people applying. Papers don't always tell the whole story. They should see how people are actually living. I think for the amount of money we are talking about its worth the investment in manpower.

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Michael · 671 weeks ago

Kudos to Yavneh! I hope their wisdom spreads to the other legacy schools! Better late than never.

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Guest · 671 weeks ago

If they are having trouble balancing their budget , why would they drop tuition by a token $100??

this $100 doesn't make a difference to the full pays nor does it make tuition more affordable for anyone else who can't afford the thousands in tuition in the first place.

seems that by cutting this $100, they just left their budget with an 80K hole ( ~800 students x $100).

As for inspecting houses, I am not sure about that. I think the people gaming the system is a such smaller percentage than you think. Besides, you can learn quite a bit about families from facebooks - who's going away for vacation, who got a new car, who got an ipad etc.

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guest · 671 weeks ago

Seriously? What about the families that spend all their money on tuition and have little food in their cabinets? Are you advocating after the visit, getting a greater tuition break? Suggestions like this lack compassion and humanity for the hundreds of families in the community who are struggling to get by. Just because families aren't getting tomchei shabbos packages or lives aren't being controlled by project Ezra because they are too proud, doesn't mean they can't sleep at night not knowing how they will pay their bills in the upcoming days and months. People are proud and don't advertise their struggles, but there are many people like this in our community, many more than we care to admit.

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ClooJew · 671 weeks ago

Agreed with guest above. For all the people we suspect, God forbid, of gaming the system, there are probably more who could use the system but refuse to take tzedakah.

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Sad situation · 671 weeks ago

I know first hand families that are struggling to pay tuition. These people have dual income homes, live modestly and have a small / old home. Yeshiva education is too far out of reality for many, but the real reality is that we must conform with society norms - do what our neighbors do!!!

1 reply · active 670 weeks ago

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ClooJew · 670 weeks ago

Not sure I understand...are you saying people send their kids to yeshiva to "conform with society norms"?

If so, that's probably a good thing.

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Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 670 weeks ago

Guest (with a capital G),

Even if it's only 1 person gaming the system to the tune of $5,000 per year, which could be $50,000 by the time their last one graduates, isn't that worth a few hours of an admins time going around to people's houses? And the ones that are hiding their incomes are probably not boasting about it on facebook.

1 reply · active 670 weeks ago

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Guest · 670 weeks ago

what would be your criteria for home inspections? These committees are made up of people from the community. It is very easy to find out about people. Zillow and google earth also provide ways for the committees to check out houses without actually having to knock on the door.

I'd rather have my admins working to improve my child's educational programs than playing sleuth for the minority of people trying to steal from a jewish institution.

Families need to provide a crazy amount of supporting documentation. are they forging their credit card bills and bank statements?

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Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 670 weeks ago

You don't have to pay sleuth. 5 minutes in someones house will tell you how they live. Someone could have more than one credit card and more than one bank account. Someone could have a cash business & income from it wouldn't be apparent from any of the documentation you mention. Or they could be charging a lot of their expenses to a business even if it wasn't a cash business. Of course most people are honest but I think a little more due diligence is in order when you're talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars of the community's money.

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Miami Al · 670 weeks ago

Most people act ethically and honestly. However, people act more ethically and honestly when they think someone is watching. Most people wash their hands after going to the bathroom, but a significant minority do not. When other people are in the bathroom, the percentage that washes their hands goes up.

Just like tax compliance is already pretty high in this country, the higher the rate of an audit, the higher the compliance, it's a CBA from there.

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JS (hello) · 670 weeks ago

I highly doubt you'll uncover much fraud. It's very difficult to detect real fraud in the form of cooked books or other financial misdoings. Maybe just conducting a 15 minute interview in the home would be enough to scare some people straight. I really don't know what the ROI on doing this would be. There are a myriad of reasons for why someone may have a nice home or a nice car or have pictures in the home from a nice vacation and still need a scholarship. There's no rule of scholarship that I am aware of that requires someone to sell an expensive home they overbought on or trade in a nice leased car. Besides, maybe the nice car is necessary for business - a person who takes clients around, like a real estate broker, for example. I also haven't heard of any real guidelines for accepting non-monetary gifts - nice clothes for kids or a pesach trip from grandparents.

So, what exactly are you going to uncover by checking out people's homes? The implication is that someone on scholarship should be living in squalor - their house dirty and unkempt, the cupboards bare, no "luxury" items to be seen. I think that's absurd, but also most of these "luxury" items are pretty cheap and aren't really so luxurious. Is an HDTV a luxury when around 2/3 of households have one? When you can buy a top-end 50" plasma screen for around $600?

Even if the school could collect all these funds, I doubt it would amount to much. The families will just put the assets somewhere else the schools can't touch it - a 401(k), a 529, charity, home maintenance, etc.

Besides, do you really want to live in such an authoritarian community? Yeshivas already dictate so much of our lives, do you really want to invite them to take over yet another area of our lives?

2 replies · active 670 weeks ago

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ClooJew · 670 weeks ago

"Yeshivas already dictate so much of our lives."

I'm baffled. Please list some examples.

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JS (hello) · 670 weeks ago

For one thing, the amount of money yeshivas cost - it is often the single largest expense a family has. That dictates the types of jobs people pursue (to try to pay the bills), size of house, types of cars, number of kids, vacations, whether the house gets repaired promptly, etc.

Also, parents are often expected to live their lives in a way matching the hashkafa of the school. It's more extreme in Chareidi schools, obviously, but I would still think a mother would doesn't cover her hair and wears pants would "dress the part" when coming to a school event or meeting with teachers. There are other examples of this as well.

Does that clarify what I meant?

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guest · 670 weeks ago

Its really sad that there are people who feel that anyone who asks for help in paying tuition, should have to inventory their belongings like they are filing for bankruptcy. It seems that there should be a schedule for how much parents can have items with value in the house.

Bankruptcy in this Country is even more humane than these people. The US Trustee doesn't make home inspections, they just ask for tax returns and pay stubs and mortgage statements. They don't go into houses having inspections.

Plus the taam rah, that all of this leaves in the mouths of parents, and our young kids, probably has more negative effects than much of the positive stuff a yeshiva education presents. The viciousness and public flogging of those who are not as fortunate does not reflect well on our community as a whole. The attitude of "if you can't afford it don't live here", smacks with heartlessness and lack of compassion and lack of understanding.

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Michael · 670 weeks ago

"The attitude of "if you can't afford it don't live here", smacks with heartlessness and lack of compassion and lack of understanding."

So I should be able to move from BC to 5th Ave and then demand that Ramaz give me a scholarship?

1 reply · active 670 weeks ago

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Guest · 670 weeks ago

No, you shouldn't - but if you move the heights and you are still struggling then you should 100% ask for help from ramaz.

Teaneck isn't as expensive. housing prices have dropped significantly over the past 3-4 years. You can get a modest 3 bed room 2 bath house for $325 or less in some parts of town.

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realist · 670 weeks ago

"Plus the taam rah, that all of this leaves in the mouths of parents, and our young kids, probably has more negative effects than much of the positive stuff a yeshiva education presents. The viciousness and public flogging of those who are not as fortunate does not reflect well on our community as a whole. The attitude of "if you can't afford it don't live here", smacks with heartlessness and lack of compassion and lack of understanding"

Well, we are all commanded to give charity, and I do believe that the Orthodox Jewish community is more generous than most. However, I don't believe that scholarship committees asking questions are "public flogging". If you need assistance, it is available. However, why can't schools ascertain what the income and assets of the scholarship recipient really are? Believe me, schools are genrally running at deficits as it is. If someone cheats the system, that means either everyone else pays more, or (in some charedi schools), teachers do not get paid. It's a big problem.

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realist · 670 weeks ago

Continued....

Finally, I don't think the concept of "If you can't afford it, don't live here" is wrong conceptually. Look, Teaneck is expensive even without tuition. Our property taxes and shul dues are quite high. Don't you think it would be better for a family to choose to live in say, a Passaic or Staten Island and be able to afford tuition as opposed to living here and getting a scholarship? I can understand people who God forbid lose their jobs and need temporary assistance. However, for someone to make a concious decision to live in a community that would put them on constant heavy scholarship (while they could live elsewhere) seems unfair to everyone else. Anyone disagree?

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Wait a minute · 670 weeks ago

Even pictures of He'Atid's training sessions show there will be 2-3 people per classroom and a lot of excess. Great that they have millions in donations now, but if someone does buy a 300k home, lives modestly, perhaps loses a job, sick famly member, etc...that family, trying to live modestly and within their reasonable means does not have a "simplified" school to choose with a low cost [long-term] in the area. They look around and every school has a list of admins on the left side of their stationary longer than many small to mid-size companies. Every classroom they visit on their tour has 2-3 people running the classroom. Sure, YNJ is 2-3k cheaper than say Yavneh, and a bit more vs BPY and Noam, but is the problem the people or that every school is "about the same" around here in options / cost and structure?

.

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Wait a minute · 670 weeks ago

The system is set up for the very affluent. Why can't there be perhaps one options for those, but for the vast majority, 2-3 options more in line with Passaic, JEC, Monsey set-up and prices?

If one walks into a shop to buy an engagement ring and all rings are priced beyond 14,000, when one's budget is 5k or 7k, the wise man shops elsewhere - for choices. However, in Teaneck, for the vast majority of famlies, there is no real variety, locally, unless one wants to go to PS, etc

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ann · 670 weeks ago

"Wait a minute" - what are you talking about?
Yeshivat He'Atid is $9K, which is $3K less than YNJ and $5K less than the others. Even more actually since it doesn't charge all the extra fees - building, dinner, registration, etc.
So how can you say there are no less expensive options?

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Carol · 670 weeks ago

i am puzzled as to why Yavneh is cutitng its scholarship budget as opposed to having a breakfast or some event to try and raise extra money for scholarship outside of what is built into tuition. Or maybe I am puzzled as to the purpose of them annoucing it - they are trying to dissuade people from applying or tell people to think twice? The economy is stil bad - and there are people who are in a rough spot for now. Generally speaking, people are happy to voluntarily give money for scholarshp when there is a need. I think people are unhappy when they are forced to give as part of tuition. Is anyone able to explain?
Wait a minute - despite what is written on all the blogs, yeshivat he'atid has an actual budget which is planned out for at least 10-15 years. That budget does not rely upon donations for all those years as you seem to be saying. But Yeshivat He'atid is only up to 1st grade now, so parents with older children do not really have a cheaper, in area, option.

1 reply · active 670 weeks ago

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Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 670 weeks ago

Carol,

I'm curious to know what you know about He'atids long term budget. Can you share it with us or is it still a secret?

Also Yavneh does fundraising events all the time. It doesn't just rely on tuition for scholarships.

-YD

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ann · 670 weeks ago

Yeshiva_Dad - why do you say it's secret. The leaders of Yeshivat He'Atid will sit down with any prospective family and talk about the budget.

1 reply · active 670 weeks ago

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Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 670 weeks ago

I asked, and I know another parent who asked & neither of us got anywhere. Carol or Ann, have you actually seen the budget with your own eyes?
-YD

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ann · 670 weeks ago

I haven't, but I never asked to. I trust that they will do what they say and if my tuition ever reaches the levels of legacy schools (which I highly doubt will ever happen), then I will make the decision what to do. I expect He'Atid's education to be every bit as good, if not better, than legacy schools. So if I save $5K year for the next 4 years and then it goes up, I have still saved $20K. And again, while I do believe it will go up for COLA, I don't expect it to ever get near what Legacy tuition is.

1 reply · active 670 weeks ago

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Guest · 670 weeks ago

I'm sure they have a line item "Donations" in the budget just like any school. Those donations subsidize each and every child.

Perhaps if they fill the classes to the capacity their consultants say can be handled by this technology, tuition will stay low. You will need to decide if 30-35 kids with 1 teacher is adequate.

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ann · 670 weeks ago

Guest - from what I've been told the maximum is 26 kids to 1.5 teachers. Right now my kid in 3rd grade has 24 kids to 2 teachers at a local legacy. Where did you get 30:1 from?

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Carol · 670 weeks ago

i have not seen it -but my husband has and i know other families who are attending who asked and did see it - they were given a lengthy explanation on it. Not sure why you were told no /what happened there.
Guest - not sure where you get 30-35 kids from.

1 reply · active 670 weeks ago

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Guest · 670 weeks ago

Rabbi Gralla himself - ask him where the magic cost savings is with a blended learning model. The costs savings is not with the model - its with the size of the class.

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Michael · 670 weeks ago

26 kids is the absolute max. Those saying that He'atid will have more than this number in a class are just spreading lies. But it's ok. While they are busy spreading lies about He'Atid, I am busy depositing my thousands of dollars of savings (versus legacy school) in the bank.

2 replies · active 670 weeks ago

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Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 670 weeks ago

More than 26 in Kindergarten would violate NJ law.
-YD

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Guest · 670 weeks ago

not in early childhood since they are bound by state/licensing regulations. Down the line as enrollment allows .

I am not spreading lies. Why don't you email him and ask him to explain it to you.

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Carol · 670 weeks ago

Guest -what is your point about class size? are you saying if it was 30 kids it is too many? certainly everyone would agree that under the old model we have here - with the teachers teaching to the middle /one assistant with her trying to cover all kids needs - it doesn't work. Are you saying more kids -whether it is 26 or 30 or 35 doesn't work with He'atid's model and if so, what is your basis for saying so? Saying that people need to decide whether one teacher with 30-35 students is adequate (aside from not being true as there are master teachers as well as regular teachers) does not take into account other elements of the model -

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realist · 670 weeks ago

Since several people here have claimed to see the budget, why can't anyone produce it?

I find this rather strange.

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ann · 670 weeks ago

realist - do you have access to the budget for your legacy school? i don't think schools are in the business of distributing their budgets.

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Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 670 weeks ago

ann,

Yavneh was pretty open about their budget at the Q&A event they had in December. See my post about that here: http://yeshivasanity.blogspot.com/2011/12/how-doe...

I know there have been discussions at Ma'ayanot about publishing their budget though they haven't done so yet.

If there's nothing to hide I don't see any reason to keep them secret.

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ann · 670 weeks ago

A number of schools have town halls where they will tell parents percentages and other approximates for spending - however they do not hand out the budget. A few years ago when I was on the board of my legacy school, we had to hand in the detailed budget after we voted on it at the budget meeting. I'm just saying it's not so crazy that He'Atid isn't handing around their budget. No one else is either. I'm sure anyone can find out percentages and approximates with a simple email.

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wait a minute · 670 weeks ago

My comments above apply to all grades. 90-95% of families have kids older than PK - 1. Also, for most people in town, they would like to see this school proven and developed several years, before they enroll. So, yes, my comments above apply to general public and existing PK - 12 in town.

Also, many have told me 9k is tight for them as well...but if there was a PK - 8 program, it would make many people in town much happier and able to attend.

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model v budget · 670 weeks ago

There is a difference between a budget and a forecasted model. a budget is for the immediate year, and I do not think it is totally uncomfortable for a school to share that (as it gets published eventually in the 990). A forecasted model projects out for several years, and no school is showing how they are going to truly evolve in the future.

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LOI · 670 weeks ago

Curious to a related question to the affordability of items in our community,

How many 100-200k chumps ever tell their kids they can't afford something (a toy, a reallly expensive car, an expensive vacation)? I suspect that many parents avoid explaining to kids that even successfull people can't afford everything they "want".

Personallly, I have no problem saying it to my kids as it's a life truth - no one can afford everything (obviously billionaires excluded). Those on scholarship might not be able to afford Teaneck and those not on scholarship might not be able to afford living in a large apartment in the upper east side. But it starts wi the question - do you tell your kids this or are they brought up expecting to have minimum "stuff" regardless of income and life choices?

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ann · 670 weeks ago

I tell my kids all the time we can't afford something. But it breaks my heart. I'm subjecting them to living amongst kids with all the latest gadgets, going on fancy vacations, having fancy homes, going to ball games, amusement parks, etc. It's torture for them even with all the musar I give. Heck - it's torture for me!

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Avi Greengart · 670 weeks ago

I rarely tell my kids that we can't afford something. Far more often, I tell them we can afford it, we just choose to spend (or save) our money elsewhere. I mean, if I was willing to cash out my 401Ks and take a second mortgage on my house, I could buy a Ferrari 458 Italia. And I really, really want a Ferrari 458 Italia. Have you seen one? It's a rolling work of art. But buying one would be profoundly stupid. There is very little that we truly cannot afford, but if we bought everything - even more mundane things like "treats" for the kids or lawn service or Scholastic book orders or a 20" sterling menorah, we would quickly be broke. That includes tuition, too. We send our three oldest to JFS in Staten Island, and while we have been absolutely thrilled with the education, we did it to save money. Which is exactly what we told them.

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Miami Al · 670 weeks ago

Why is it a secret that you'd can't afford everything?

When money was tight, they were told that. When it loosened up, we've done what Avi does, tell them that we don't choose to spend money on it.

Sometimes, we're in a store, and my kids start asking for candy. I say no, I get a "is it Kosher?" I know plenty of people that lie and tell their kids no, but I tell them the truth, either, "no, it's not kosher, or "it is Kosher, but I'm choosing not to buy it for you."

Life is about choices, I'm open with my kids about the decisions I make. When they complain, I tell them that when they are adults, they'll get to make the decisions.

It's called parenting.

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