Yeshiva Sanity: Back to the "Goldbergs"

Thursday, May 3, 2012

Back to the "Goldbergs"

I didn't get any more responses from Teaneck Council candidates so I'm back to talking about the "Goldbergs" a hypothetical typical family of 5 from Teaneck attending one of the local Yeshiva Day schools. Yeshivat Noam put their 2012/2013 tuition/fee schedule on the web & I linked to it on the side. Yavneh still didn't but it's scanned in below (after the jump). So far I figured the breakdown is as follows for what this family would pay at the various local Jewish Day Schools:

JEC $33,500

Yavneh $39,775

Noam $46,625

BPY $47,315

Solomon Schechter easily wins first prize at a whopping $55,800!

Still waiting on Moriah, RYNJ and JFS to publish their schedules. If anyone has them please send them to me.

Of course if He'atid makes good on its commitment to keep prices constant (just adjusting for inflation), in 2016 a "Goldberg" family would be paying $25,970 in 2012 dollars.

Comments (17)

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wait a second · 673 weeks ago

While it may be unfair to speculate on He'Atid's 2016 tuition, if you are going to run "frozen" numbers plus inflation, you should have to do the same for all others and say, but for inflation numbers, cost would be X in 2016 for the other schools.

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Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 673 weeks ago

wait,

I didn't add for inflation when doing He'atid's numbers, I just kept them where they are now. I only said 2016 because right now they don't have a 2nd grade or a 5th grade but they should by 2016. So for all schools they are all in 2012 dollars using current rates.

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Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 673 weeks ago

just to clarify, in the parentheses where I said "just adjusting for inflation" I meant that He'atid said they would keep prices constant with only inflation adjustments, not that I was adjusting for inflation in running the numbers.

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thatguy · 673 weeks ago

is there any way to create an equivalent number based on BOE expenditures per child to see how much would be spent on the child if the child/children were enrolled in local townships' public schools?

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get real! · 673 weeks ago

that guy - there are so many differences between Public School and JDS, so drop this already! Public School figures take care of all kids including special needs. They also have activities like sports teams and have enormous campuses. They also pay for lunch and after-care for those parents that fit that category. If you want to, then you need to average in Sinai and the cost of lunch and all the costs of the classes parents take their kids to for the extra curricular stuff imbedded in the cost of public school. you are also isolating the cost of public school in teaneck as if it is the paradigm of quality or efficiency. it is neither. there are school districts around the country, and even in the tri-state area (if you really feel immediate location is needed for comparison) that are significantly less than teaneck. use those schools! you keep on harping on this point, but why not look at california where they spend $5k or so on each kid. even if you say there is a cost structure difference (ie salary and real estate differences), feel free to double their number and you are still less than our schools. just face it - our schools are not cheap. when you have a school like BPY that has 3 (yes - three) teachers in a classroom of 15 Pre-K kids, you have a problem!!!!

2 replies · active 673 weeks ago

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guest 3 · 673 weeks ago

why is this a problem? that's what the parents are paying for and perhaps why people are choosing BPY over let's say Yavneh. For the money, the kids are getting more personalized attention.

Also, would love to see a break out of cost per day of school - since BPY will have close to 7 more school days than Yavneh.

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thatguy · 673 weeks ago

strange that I "keep on harping" on something that I have mentioned only once. strange that you insist i want teaneck when I mentioned local townships. strange that you tell me to drop something that was a request. strange how you fly off the handle when someone asks for information and seem to chafe so quickly and severely at the request.

i believe that one can isolate school based expenditures as distinct from special ed funding by looking at the school budget, considering special ed populations and line items dedicated to aides, supports or classrooms. you can also look at number of students qualifying for free or reduced price breakfasts and/or lunches and look at costs of lunch programs (either as BOE budget item or as OOP expense for yeshiva parents).

I am sure that someone who wanted to come up with a ball park figure for comparison and who cared about the information could do so. you clearly are not that person and you clearly don't know me or why I am asking. so take a step back and deep breath. either become part of the solution or shut up.

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get real #2 · 673 weeks ago

Get Real - you hit it on the head. Also, public schools have "dual" staff. Health, art, music, chorus, marching band, coaches, drama, acting, film and dozens of other programs. I spoke to someone in a local public school district that told me they have several dozen severely special needs kids costing them well over 50k each, with some closing in on or above 100k!!! Can we add that to BPY or Yavnah?

The typical mainstream kid in a public school, not involved with the sports teams, extras, special needs, etc. costs that district 50-70% of the average district per pupil figures you read in the paper. Yes, and that is with all the overlapping admin. positions in the public system.

Those that want to focus on this comparison are simply trying to rationalize why BPY and NOAM are over 17k a child. There is no rationality for said figures - especially if you knew how low the salaries are for the rank and file staff and faculty member!!! When you realize the average mainstream child in any public school, even the wasteful TPS is well below BPY / NOAM average, and their staff and teachers are paid on average, nearly double the yeshiva teachers, especially when considering benefits, the mind becomes NUMB...what are these yeshivot doing with all our money?

People can continue to stand still and financially ruin themselves or they can stand up and make a difference.

2 replies · active 673 weeks ago

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thatguy · 673 weeks ago

"The typical mainstream kid in a public school, not involved with the sports teams, extras, special needs, etc. costs that district 50-70% of the average district per pupil figures you read in the paper."

Great! so if you can substantiate those numbers, then tell me the number listed in the paper so i can multiply it by 50 to 70 percent and get a comparable answer. why is that so tough?

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get real #2 · 673 weeks ago

It is not as simple as you think. There are benefits, pensions, and other items that may not fall under "special ed" but are attributable to those individuals. There is special transportation, that could cost 5-20k a year for a severe special ed child, that is found under "transportation", not special ed. So, what I said as 50-70% is based on figures told to me by many people in the know, and it varies by district. Again, 50-70, assume no special services, no sports, no special clubs, etc - just your average "Joe" in a mainstream classroom, taking regular course load.

As most districts in the area are 14k - 20k, assume we are taking 7-13k per kid, depending on district in area, etc.

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get real! · 673 weeks ago

guest3 - my problem with BPY's three teachers per room is that we are led to believe that it is a necessity to turn out a great kid, when in fact it is a mere luxury that has at best a minimal incremental level of true value about how the kid will be prepared for the future (qualitatively or quantitatively). if someone actually shared the per-parent cost that the 3rd teacher costs (roughly - $20k divided by 12 (as 3 kids in the room are on scholarship) - you get a cost of $1,500 per paying kid), then maybe the parents would re-think if it is truly worth it. if i was given an option of 2 vs 3 teachers in order to save me $1,500 per kid per year, i would take it. stop living in a world where we feel our desires are in fact our needs.

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Orthowatch · 673 weeks ago

Moriah has pre-school info up on their website: http://www.edline.net/files/_VLCO1_/2a27a3d73af19...

1 reply · active 673 weeks ago

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anony · 673 weeks ago

need a password for that link

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guest 3 · 673 weeks ago

yes, but please do the math appropriately. It is a 3rd person, shared between 3 classes, ~ 45 kids.

Education is not a check card to pick what YOU specifically want. Parents who send to BPY obviously value the extra person in the class and are OK with their financial decision. If they picked a school soley based on tuition, then clearly BPY would have zero enrollment - when in reality they are getting more new families each year than Yavneh, which is close to $1500 cheaper per year. Get real - can you explain that?

1 reply · active 673 weeks ago

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Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 673 weeks ago

3,

At least part of the reason is that BPY is pretty generous with scholarships. Curious to know how many full-paying parents go to each school. Also Yavneh has more than double the number of students as BPY so stop acting like BPY is so much more popular.
-YD

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ObSeRveR · 673 weeks ago

looks like the number change dramatically for Yavneh if you alter the Goldbergs family make up by 1 year

IE, they have kids in K, 3, & 6. It puts the schools much closer in price

Yavneh: $44550
NOAM: $45,800 + $500 embassador contribution + full lunch for 3 children
BPY: $48,250

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Avi Greengart · 673 weeks ago

For 2012 -13, JFS is $9000 per child for Bergen County families for grades K - 8, including all fees and door-to-door transportation.

A few notes for the Goldbergs:
JFS does not encourage Bergen County parents to send to pre-K or K, as the transportation is only available for full school hours and the pre-K/primer are housed in a separate building a mile away. Intra-building transportation and before/aftercare can be arranged, but it is not an ideal arrangement for a small child.
I don't have a lunch schedule for next year - but I don't think you should include that anyway.
If the Goldbergs live in Bergenfield, they are going to have to carpool or pay for transportation to any of the schools. JFS includes transportation in the $9,000 amount, making it an even better value for Bergenfield parents.

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