Yeshiva Sanity: Jewish Week Looking for He'atid Parents to Interview

Tuesday, October 16, 2012

Jewish Week Looking for He'atid Parents to Interview

From Julie Wiener of the Jewish Week:

I cover education for The New York Jewish Week and am working on an article about Yeshivat He'Atid and some of the other new Jewish schools (already launched and in planning stages) that are following He'atid's "blended learning" and lower-cost approach. I'll be visiting the school next week and meeting with teachers, administrators and lay leaders, but I'd also like to interview parents who have children in the school. I'm particularly interested to learn how happy (or not) parents are so far, how the school compares with other Jewish schools where they have enrolled children, and what concerns they have.

If you are interested in being interviewed by phone, please e-mail me at julie.inthemix@gmail.com. I can protect confidentiality if necessary (although I prefer on-the-record, for-attribution interviews) but I do need to know your name so I can confirm you are a real person.

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Guess my name · 649 weeks ago

All this blog does is to promote Heatid at the expense of every other yeshiva. How many kids do you have there YD?

On another note, condolences to Chump on his recent loss.

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End Welfare · 649 weeks ago

GMN, Despite what you may think, your comment does a real disservice to the (overpriced) legacy schools that you think you are helping by posting your dribble. It is sad, but in a way kind of funny, how the legacy school apologists are now scrambling to keep up with a school that costs so many thousands of dollars less than the legacy schools and is providing an education that is AT LEAST as good as that provided at the legacy schools.

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guest4 · 649 weeks ago

EW - so not a fair comparison considering one school has been open for a month that was missing half the days.

Truth is, heatid won't be able to accommodate all the students that could potentially want to go there. They also don't have a full year of expenses to under their belt to be able to properly forecast out budgets, The community still needs to support all of the schools and not just focus on one.

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guest · 649 weeks ago

It will be really interesting to see if a parent wishes to comment about lack of services at He'Atid on the RECORD? it is "get by" with our program or attend another school. Better yet, perhaps run this article in 6, 12 or 24 months. Not all deficits / enrichment / supplemental issues appear at the surface day one, or when you are just making a honey dish for rosh hashannah. When they surface, and school has no resources, let's interview those parents at that time. That would be a fair evaluation of the program.

1 reply · active 649 weeks ago

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End Welfare · 649 weeks ago

So what you are saying is that the 95% of parents who don't have children who need special services (resource rooms etc....) should go broke supporting and subsidizing the 5% who need such services? I just want to understand your argument before I comment on it. Having said that, my understanding is that Heatid's model can adequately handle some, but of course not all, of the kids who now get sent to resource rooms in the legacy schools. But there is no doubt that Heatid is not right for every single kid and that some kids may need Sinai or resource rooms at legacy schools or whatever and for these parents, Heatid might not be the best choice for them.

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Noam Parent · 649 weeks ago

How about we interview parents 20 years from now when they don't have a pot to piss in and are miserable and depressed from not having any financial resources?

1 reply · active 649 weeks ago

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Mark 50p · 649 weeks ago

Why 20 years from now? Just interview parents with kids graduating high school now.

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guest · 649 weeks ago

i know every one in the community is so afraid that if they send their kids to public school they wont remain religious but who is to say that our kids who know their parents are stressed out and never get to see them because they are always working to pay for yeshiva education wont resent judaism?

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anon · 649 weeks ago

agree with you guest. what is the breaking point where families say 1 income and sending to PS with one parent staying home is better. Everyone knows that Judaism is truly instilled in the home. It's only as costs have risen which required dual incomes that now families rely on schools to raise their children.

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guest · 649 weeks ago

we've hit the breaking point and decided to give the teaneck community charter school a try. so far we've been thrilled.

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guest · 649 weeks ago

assuming he atid stays at 10k sending 4 kids there is $40k per year which for most families means both parents working full time. ps is the only route that would allow one parent to stay at home. not sure why the community leaders are so quick to dismiss the merits of one parent staying at home and refuse to see ps plus a talmud torah as a good option.

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Guess my name · 649 weeks ago

I still can't understand why parents who claim they can't come close to affording tuition bought homes here. Teaneck is a very expensive place to live for Orthodox Jews, whether it be shul dues, cost of kosher food or property taxes. There are many cheaper places to live in the tri-state area. Therefore, I tend to dismiss posts like End Welfare's as "campaign rhetoric". My friend, if a 10 or 20% tuition reduction will not help you, then you are living in the wrong community. It is certainly not for me to tell people where to live, but I simply can't understand people who want a lexus and only pay for a hundai. ____Please try Passaic, Staten Island or Brooklyn.

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guest · 649 weeks ago

I know people that bought homes for under 350 and under 300 over the past several years. Their incomes, because they work in tri-state area, and not in ohio, michigan, etc. are significantly higher. There are people in town not buying 750k or 900k homes. There are people in town that don't take 8k yeshiva break vacations. They could live wonderfully but for yeshiva tuition.

What does it say about a system, when even if you buys a 300k home, both work, etc. and cannot afford yeshiva? Is the problem the person or the yeshiva. Also, when you head out of town, depending on where you go, the homes are not too much cheaper than the cheaper homes here and the salaries are lower, but the yeshivas are close to or the same as Teaneck. Check out DC, Philly, LA, Long Island...are there some options that are less, sure...but we don't have 5k or 7500 in any of these towns.

as far as that comment about resources above: I think we can all agree that the author was not referring to the perpetual resource child or Sinai student. Certainly, He'Atid will have a "short circuit" even entertaining educating that child. However, MOST children usually need some sort of support at various points during their educational journey. May be for 1/2 year here, 2 months here on various things. I think i was in the "speech trailer" in 3rd grade and "math enrichment" room for 6th - 8th.

Interviewing parents now is a misleading ridiculous idea. Question 1: Did you like saving money? Question 2: Was your child's holiday art projects nice? Question 3: Are you happy you chose He'Atid over Yavneh / YNJ?

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guest · 649 weeks ago

seems like every conversation leads down the road to public school. I wonder why. Where are the rabbis on this matter? I know they are employed by the yeshivas, but if there is that much chatter about this route, and a serious increase using this route every year, why not have an open conference with all community rabbis, with the public invited to participate on this topic. I have spoken to several families with children in public school - i dont know one that regrets their choice.

1 reply · active 649 weeks ago

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David · 649 weeks ago

I would ask why do you need a gathering of Rabbis? You can speak to one you respect yourself, or make your own choice. I hope never to go the PS route myself, but I know others for whome it was the only option, and I don't think anyone or any Rabbi is second guessing them.

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guest4 · 649 weeks ago

Guest - I find it insulting that people believe that the Rabbi's should rally against the schools so that all moms can stay home. Everyone here seems to assume that women work only to help pay yeshiva tuition and that if tuition wasn't there we would all be stay at home moms.

Me and most of my fellow working mommies actually work because we want to and we enjoy it. We have advanced degrees and work hard and long hours. We are professionals. We know it is our responsibility to raise our children and we don't think that this responsibility falls on the schools in any way, shape or form.

Is it easy, NO. But I would never be a stay at home mom. I actually feel that my kids being in daycare from a very young age has benefited them more than staying home with me all day. I make sure to make every minute I am with them count. It's not about the amount of time its about the quality of the time.

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guest · 649 weeks ago

Chances of 4 kids at He'Atid at once is slim. But, let's run with a 4 child scenario and assume He'Atid never buys a building, never increases tuition, you go to dinner and donate a bit of money to the school beyond tuition - not significantly.

4 kids at He'Atid: Around 40k. That is almost 60k pre-tax or more. Let's assume mom now does not stay home and finds a job: She needs salary to hit 70k or more, just to cover cost of commuting, tuition and taxes - not a penny for take home. That is for no take home. If mom is making less than 70k, she is leaving home to just CONTRIBUTE to yeshiva tuition, and her salary alone will not cover commute and tuition. Let's assume NO BABYSITTING and she can leave work DAILY at 245 PM and it is in NJ so no need for early / after care. Hmm, how many of these jobs exist.

Now, let's assume 4 kids, with 1 in HS and 3 at HeAtid: Assume slight scholarship for the one in HS, so total package at HS is 20k and 30k for Heatid. Now mom needs 50k take home plus commuting costs plus taxes - or a salary approaching or exceeding 80k, but remember, no aftercare or babysitters, so mom must be working in NJ, get out every day at 2:45.

How many 80-85k jobs exist in NJ that will allow mom to leave at 2:45 daily, perhaps 12:30 Friday? How many 50k jobs exist in NJ that will allow mom to leave at 2:45 daily?

Let's say mom found that job, but must stay until 5:30 PM, now we need an afternoon babysitter and dinner pre-cooked. Hmm, how much is that going to cost a year? How many moms have jobs paying $100,000, no late nights, leave by 5:30 PM, etc. every day, but 2 PM on Friday? I know someone may say school teachers or school assistants or secretaries at schools...they don't make HALF of this salary.

I use mom, just because statistically, if one parent stays home, it is USUALLY mom, and not dad. But this comment is not sexist, replace mom with dad if you wish. Bottom line, this short post alone shows that the system cannot sustain itself.

1 reply · active 649 weeks ago

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guest4 · 649 weeks ago

This post is ridiculous. It assumes that mom's salary is only to pay tuition and that dad's salary doesn't go to anything other than living expenses.

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guest · 649 weeks ago

we spoke to a local rabbi about creating a solid after school talmud torah for public school kids he told us that we didnt do a good enough job begging for $ from the yeshivot and he would "go to bat for us" we told him we didnt want to take charity and instead wanted to be in a position to give charity. we got absolutely no where with him.

1 reply · active 649 weeks ago

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David · 649 weeks ago

Well then don't wait for him to come around to your point of view -- go to it yourself! If you build it, they will come.

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guest · 649 weeks ago

guest4 we must have very different friends. i have very few friends who work because they want to. all of them say they would much rather be home with their kids and feel extremely guilty about leaving their kids such long hours at day care or with nannies. all of them say the only reason they work is to pay yeshiva tuition. in addition the very same friends all say they had to stop at 3 kids because of yeshiva tuition and constantly refer to it as jewish birth control. i have many friends who are lawyers and even a few drs who decided to stay home with their children.

1 reply · active 649 weeks ago

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guest4 · 649 weeks ago

I guess we do have different friends ..... daycare is 12-14 k a year ( $1100/month x 12.) Mom's who send their first and/or second child to daycare are working not to pay yeshiva tuition - but to pay daycare, take some extra home, and get out of the house to exercise their brain. The jump to yeshiva tuition is not that insane.

and these lawyers and doctor women who decide to stay home are the exact families that are asking for financial aid. you have a degree, you have training, go to work and better your family. don't sit back and complain that tuition is too high.

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guest · 649 weeks ago

not sure every mom would agree that going to work just because you have a degree is "bettering your family" and im sure almost every dad would prefer his wife to stay home atleast when the kids are young if yeshiva tuition werent an issue.

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guest · 649 weeks ago

Sure people can have different philosophies. Some may want to be a successful business man / woman. Some may want to be a professional or para-professional. However, what I think guest was saying, the "2nd parent leaving the home", with 3 or 4 kids, under our system, is almost exclusively for tuition and after school care, but for the few who have BOTH family incomes in the 6 figures. If that is the case for your family, this blog is probably a joke to you, because you do not understand the masses. Again, it is a very good point - if 4 kids, just he'atid for 3, 1 in HS with small scholarship and after school costs, that person's pre-tax salary must be close to 100k...now we know why the crisis exists - we need to be top 3 or 5% of USA earners, and we still cannot make it!!!

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guest · 649 weeks ago

a 200k dual income family can barely make ends meat with 4 kids in yeshivot, a modest home and 2 cars. something is really wrong with the system where families have to be earning upwards of $300k to get by.

1 reply · active 649 weeks ago

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Teanecker Chasid · 649 weeks ago

Chumps!
For those who find this term insulting, I should clarify that I use it because it was exactly this issue that launched this public discussion to begin with.

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Guess my name · 649 weeks ago

Why do the weak sisters here feel the need to validate their actions? Some people talk about public school (some believe its the only option), but they "can't do it". Why not? Community pressure, no rabbinical support, no critical mass, etc.

Look, if you really think public school is the answer, then go for it. Stop being a sheep and worry about what everyone else will think or do. Are you afraid to eat kosher food because of what people will say? Afraid to take off Jewish holidays? Why would you be afraid to do this?

Personally, I would not send my kids to PS for religious reasons, but I think these excuses are really lame.

5 replies · active 649 weeks ago

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guest · 649 weeks ago

The reason it is so hard to take one's children out of the Jewish Day School system and place them into a public school program which is exactly what we did is that the pressure from the community - and the resulting social "coldness" not to mention the reaction we got from family was horrible to live through initially.

We took our children out of the day school system for two very basic reasons - each reason played an equal role in our decision. The first reason was the low academic and lack of appropriate and professionalism among the faculty - across the board we were disappointed. There was always a story and the story never varied. We don't yet have our workbooks/textbooks; we can't give more than five minutes of homework a day or we get disgruntled calls from parents. When I mentioned that its not possible to learn a language on five minutes a day of homework - the teacher said she agreed and in fact, they spend much of the fall reviewing what they learned in the spring because by the time the children return from their summer vacation they've forgotten much of the previously learned material. Much of the school day seemed like a joke and so, when we looked at the amount of money we were spending on day school tuition we decided it was simply not worth it. Rabbis walked up to us constantly asking us how we could do such a thing to our children? Weren't we concerned that they'd marry non Jews? We explained our concerns but they weren't really all that interested in WHY we took our kids out or in HOW the schools often seem to underwhelm academically. All they care about was that we made a different choice. There were parents who no longer talked to us nor allowed their children to play with ours. And the reaction from our various families was no different - I think the biggest issue was that they (the greater family) felt shamed by our decision. This is probably not an isolated response to a choice to send children to public school and so it does require a strong sense of self and confidence to manage the backlash from both the community and greater/extended family. It is a big deal but our kids are thriving academically and socially and we do not regret our decision even though we recognize that the education they are receiving Jewishly is not as robust as their peers.

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guest · 649 weeks ago

what are you doing for Jewish studies since there is no real talmud torah in the area?

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guest · 649 weeks ago

We do a combination of things to address the limudei kodesh. First of all, we have two children and both are in middle school now but we work with them differently and focus on different subjects within the "jewish studies" area. My husband is the one with a yeshiva background and so he (a few times a week in the evening) will sit with the children individually and they read the chumash together and discuss different elements of the parsha. There is no deeper analysis except that on occasion one of the children will remember an element from a different part of the tanach and will raise an issue and the conversation stretches endlessly. My husband certainly doesn't cover the breadth of ground that would be addressed in a traditional Jewish Day School. However, the depth of analysis combined with the love of Torah study is transmitted TOGETHER and I feel that this is a powerful and potent combination. Our kids have friends of every race and religion and socio economic level, and they revel in the differences and constantly discuss the differences between Judaism and other religions. The conversation is OPEN and FRANK. They've at times expressed a frustration with the limitations of modern orthodox observance, but again, they are expressing nothing that many of their friends in Jewish Day Schools are new to. I feel that our kids will be more authentically Jewish and truly comfortable with their choice and will stretch themselves both spiritually and intellectually specifically because they know they must in order to maintain their own yiddishkeit "out there". Now, I must say that we have been blessed with healthy, smart, loving and intellectually minded children and so we have felt that we could (within the culture of our home) take this "risk" of public school. In terms of Hebrew, we spend time in Israel every year - substantial time, and the children are in Israeli programs and speaking and engaging with other Israeli kids. In terms of the money "saved" there is no such thing. We couldn't ever really afford Jewish Day school in a responsible way and used our savings towards tuition. Given that the economics of life have shifted over the past several years, we've taken quite a hit financially anyway and as such, our shift to public school was clearly a necessary one. One other thing - We love Judaism. What I mean by this is that I connect to Judaism and yiddishkeit in a very specific way as does my husband (his way is very different). The key is that our children watch us engage Shabbat and the chagim and daily life WITH our Judaism very present and palpable and so they understand that it (an honest relationship with religion and G-d and all of its obligations and challenges) are essential to living an authentic and meaningful life. I hope I answered your questions.

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Happy SAHM · 649 weeks ago

Do you go to shul ? Did you move to Conservative? Reform? Reconstructionist? It sounds like you've been excommunicated.

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guest · 649 weeks ago

We do go to a modern orthodox shul and are fully observant. I would say that we feel somewhat more peripheral within the community than we had while our kids were attending Jewish Day Schools, but even though we are active within the shul, we've never been part of that "inner circle". I suspect that the reason for that was more cultural than religious and it is this same cultural "ness" that has allowed us to take the direction we have with our children in public school. However, there is a steady stream of people at shul that come up to us on the QT and ask us about the public school - and that they wish they could take their kids out of day school (for a variety of reasons ranging from sad academics to poor socialization to cost of tuition, etc...). When I ask them why they don't just try it, the responses run the gamut from - their parents (grandparents) would pull the money they give for camp costs and bar and bat mitzvah and trips, to they're waiting to see how much scholarship they'll get this time around, to they worry about their child's ability to adjust to a new environment ....

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guest · 649 weeks ago

thanks so much from that detailed analysis. Do you do any formal Jewish education for your children? How old are your children? Do they have friends in the public school? Jewish / not Jewish friends? Have the kids given you positive / negative feedback?

when you look at the financial costs of yeshiva, what are you doing with that money, which you would have spent otherwise? Now, i understand if you were using credit cards and home equity lines of credit to pay for it, but if was just w-2 income that is now not going to yeshiva, are you putting it into retirement accounts, 529s, etc? What are you doing?

Good post sir and perhaps you should post a guest post on this blog?

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Sora · 649 weeks ago

in the 40s and 50s (maybe later) Jewish kids went to public schools and Talmud Torahs. There is a reason yeshiva day schools were created. I dont minimize the need for cheaper jewish education, but we are fooling ourselves if we think that public school is the answer for the masses. it wasn't the answer years ago and certainly whatever problems Jewish children in public schools faced back then have not disappeared in the year 2012.

1 reply · active 649 weeks ago

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guest · 649 weeks ago

I don't know one family that can afford day school tuition for their children without the help of family or scholarship and in many cases they require the aid of both. Some of the families utilizing help from grandparents no longer have that as an option and so are taking out second loans on their homes. These are not people living "fancy" lives. These are full time, hard working, observant families that are constantly scrambling financially. I can't imagine that this is a healthy way or a happy way to rear children - and I doubt that they find Shabbat all that restful. Shabbat is exhausting, especially if one has no cleaning and cooking help and must face a challenging community at shul. I can't help wondering where all these communities will be in twenty or thirty years but I don't think they will be particularly vibrant for much longer - we're all too exhausted!

That Talmud Torahs have less than a stellar record is true but the model on which those in the 40s and 50s were based would make little sense today. Given all the readily available Torah learning going on I think the Talmud Torah of today would be far more vibrant and relevant - and we certainly have sufficient numbers of Rabbis and Jewish educators to fill the teaching spots. I think that the reason rabbis are so nervous about working on creating a model of Talmud Torah is that it would be a tipping point in the current educational model within the community. I suspect that large numbers of families would readily switch their children into public schools and this worries the community leadership.

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guest · 649 weeks ago

the reason that the public schools didnt work from 1920-1950 is because overall the jews who went there were children of immigrants eager to become american and shed their european identity. Many immigrants viewed judaism as dangerous post hitler and were happy for their children to become american and fit in. in addition many immigrant parents would work 6 days a week including shabbos and not be home to take their children to shul. i dont believe modern orthodox american jewish children in teaneck would face the same issues today. It is pretty clear that the yeshiva system isnt sustainable i think its time for the community to back a vibrant talmud torah option.

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Noam Parent · 649 weeks ago

So why don't you all stop wasting time bitching about this on a blog and actually go out and make it happen? Say what you want about GD, but he is no talk and all action. You guys are all talk and no action. If you want a TT to happen, get it done! Don't always look for others to do what you won't do yourself!

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