Yeshiva Sanity: Teacher Compensation at Public Schools

Thursday, October 4, 2012

Teacher Compensation at Public Schools

Chart above comes from a Teaneck Patch article showing Teaneck with the highest paid teachers in Bergen County. I'm curious to know how the salaries compare to Yeshiva Day School teacher salaries so we can know if there really is a chance teachers would bolt to public schools if we added days to the calendar, as one reader suggested. Of course there are huge advantages for MO teachers to want to stay in an MO school including being off for Yom Tov, discounts if they send their children to the school (or at least getting to pay in pre-tax dollars), familiarity with the environment, kosher food, etc.

I also came across the maximum class sizes from the United Federation of Teachers contract. Interesting to note that they allow for much larger class sizes than we have in our schools:

The UFT contract establishes limits for class size as follows:
• Pre-kindergarten: 18 students with a teacher and a paraprofessional.
• Kindergarten: 25 students.
• Grades 1-6: 32 students.
• Junior high school/middle school: 33 students in non-Title I schools; 30 in Title I schools.
• High school: 34 students; 50 in physical education/gym.

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thatguy · 651 weeks ago

the "lowest" figure far outstrips the "lowest" in the yeshiva system and the public schools have 2 other things going for them -- pensions and a printed pay scale. sure, we could argue about the advantages/disadvantages of unions and collective bargaining and tenure and the bureaucracy of public schools but in terms of raw pay, the Teaneck pay scale, compared to what i have made, is substantially higher. so i trade off for those things that i like about the yeshiva system and accept lower pay as a function of the convenience etc.

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Tim · 651 weeks ago

And what is the cost per pupil in the public school system versus the yeshiva day school system? Teaneck's cost per student is roughly $24,000 per student.

1 reply · active 651 weeks ago

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guest · 651 weeks ago

we've been down this road before comparing the cost of yeshiva day school to public school. its not a fair comparison. yeshiva day schools dont have real special ed for severly disabled children. the point is that most people cant afford to pay for public school (ie property taxes) and then pay for yeshiva day school on top of it. the only long term solution is public school plus talmud torah or for families to stop having 4 children and have 2 instead. Not sure why rabbis find forming a talmud torah as so unacceptable when the alternative is to reduce jewish birthrate.

4 replies · active 651 weeks ago

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guest · 651 weeks ago

the student to teacher ratio in teaneck public schools is the same as yeshivas. class sizes are not significantly larger.

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guest · 651 weeks ago

no talmud torah was ever formed for k-8. shalom academy was supposed to have an after school talmud torah component. sacs not opening had nothing to do with low registration. sacs actually had waiting lists for many grades despite its founder being so disfuctiona l. the one that never opened was supposed to be for high school students.

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guest · 651 weeks ago

Talmud Torah would have opened for K-8. SACS failed so the TT failed. Very simple. The one that people are talking about is a HS program. Most HS frum kids in PS have chavrutot / private tutors and parents were not overly interested in the HS level TT. I know many that would be in the K-8 system.

If one thinks there are no kids in TPS that are frum in PK - 4th grade, speak to each shul rabbi and ask them for the number, without names, and it will be dozens. It is not publicized, but it exists. Plus, a couple are at TCCS.

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guest · 651 weeks ago

Cost analysis is a waste of time. I do not think Frisch or TABC have a Jr varsity, Freshman and Varsity football, diving, swim, fencing, theater, drama, comedy, etc. club / team. Do they have dozens of ESL classes for 100s of students? Do they have facilities that can accommodate severely handicap children / serious disabilities, that often cost the district over $100,000 per child? Until one wants to compare apples with apples, this discussion is useless. Also, ever review the credentials of every PS teacher and compare it to 80% of our yeshivot teachers?

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anon · 651 weeks ago

the sad part is if everyone weren't such sheep, you would send to PS and TPS would be 80% frum - especially Whittier. this town is a complete "herd" mentality. that's why we're in this situation in the first place.

1 reply · active 651 weeks ago

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guest · 651 weeks ago

I think each family has to do what is best for their situation. Clearly, community rabbis and leaders do what they "can", but that has NOT resolved the situation. If that means PS enrollment, so be it. Perhaps someone wants to host a parlor meeting of families considering PS enrollment - open to families considering it and families already enrolled. If well publicized, I believe the turnout will be standing room only.

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guest · 651 weeks ago

The Teaneck Community Charter School (the charter school that already exists) opens its admission period on Nov 1. The school will be hosting 2 open houses the 1st on Nov 17 at 7 pm the 2nd on Dec 3 at 10 am. The school day is from 8:30 am- 3:15 pm and class size is limited to 17 children with 2 teachers in grades k-5 and 17 children with 1 teacher grades 6-8. It is a small school with only 2 sections per grade. More information about the school in gerneral, the admission process and the open houses is available on the school's website tccnj.org.

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guest · 651 weeks ago

sorry for typo charter school website is tccsnj.org

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Guess my name · 651 weeks ago

Well, it's pretty obvious that public school teacher salaries are MUCH higher than their counterparts at yeshivas. It's even worse in Brooklyn, where they pay some teacher around minimum wage and sometimes don't pay for months. If yeshivas paid teachers PS salaries, tutiuon would be much higher.

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Been through system · 651 weeks ago

I have been reading this blog with interest for some time and would like to comment on a few things. It is possible that this post will be split into more than one:
1) Many of us in town with college aged kids or older remember a time when some schools in Teaneck were open on Chol Hamoed. This changed in the late 90's with the shifting needs of the community in mind as the community was moving more to the right. Presumably things can change again to meet the legitimate needs of the community.
2) In the days when there were three schools in town, Yavneh, Moriah and YNJ, both Yavneh and Moriah had their winter Break in December. This too only changed in the late 90's. First YNJ moved to January while Yavnah and Moriah remained with the December break, then Yavneh shifted and finally Moriah. From what I remember there were people who were happy and unhappy either way. (to be continued)

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Been through system · 651 weeks ago

Continued from above:
3)Regarding dismissal on Friday, Yavneh used to have a later dismissal at the beginning of the year. They switched when the clocks turned and switched back to a later time in the spring. Not sure what they do now. Perhaps there are more schools and more kids now so bus companies may have difficulty with this type of flexible arrangement throughout a year, but it should be noted that it was achieved in town at one point, and it is worth the research to see if it could be achieved again.

4) Finally, I am not sure where any anger towards teachers is coming from. Teachers do not set policies, schedules, calendars, or any such thing. They are given a calendar like everyone else and told when to show up as well as what duties they have. Most teachers come earlier and stay later not to mention work at home. (To be continued)

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Been through system · 651 weeks ago

The average female teacher in MO Yeshiva day school in this area has a salary that hovers around the lowest paid Teaneck Public School teacher as reported above. Some make more, some make less. Assistant teachers can make in the 20's.Rabbeim make more and high school teachers make more. Perhaps with 4 children in school at the same time and in the same place where she teaches,a female teacher may approach the "average" earnings listed above if one factors in the tuition discounts but this does not help for Social Security. For how many years out of a teacher's career are so many of her children in the same school? Are there benefits to working in a Yeshiva? Of course. Is there a problem with the current system and parents affording it? Absolutely. But negative comments about the teachers and remarks that things are somehow easy and cushy for them when they are the front lines dealing with enough parents and kids who project an overwhelming sense of entitlement (a pervasive problem in our community) is not the way to go. We need to w ork together to change what can be changed without lashing out at the very people who give so much of themselves to our children on a daily basis.

2 replies · active 650 weeks ago

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anon · 650 weeks ago

salary is not an accurate reflection of teacher compensation. teachers get significant tuition discounts if they send their children to the same school where they work. 15-20 of non-taxed income on top of 48K for discount tuition is a pretty good salary for working 10 months of the year.

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guest · 650 weeks ago

10 months? with 10+ days off in September, 10+ in January and 10+ in April, minus a few weekends, I think it comes to 8.5 - 9 months a year.

However, I think we need to refocus our discussion. Teachers are the backbone of our schools. After us, they are the backbone of our children's education. Are they qualified, certified, etc. are good questions. However...if one thinks tuition crisis is due to teacher's salary, they are not focusing on the real issues at hand.

1 reply · active 650 weeks ago

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Guest · 650 weeks ago

public school teacher benefits are not included in the chart above and are off the charts. even without this no matter how many free tuition benefits you add in no teacher in a yeshiva is going to see a cash salary of 113,000 anytime in their career no matter how many degrees they have.

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guest · 650 weeks ago

What happens if schools ended teacher tuition subsidies. Rather, adjust teachers salary to be a bit more competitive, say 10-15% raises, and a teacher must apply for scholarship based on total family income / circumstances, just like any other family. With that in place, it may help narrow the cost gap for yeshiva a bit. Furthermore, guest4 said salary is 70-80% of budget. I think it is more on the 70% side, but have we lost focus of 10+ admins, in schools of 500 - 1,000 kids, with salaries averaging 150k or more, There are ways to scale back [and I am not talking about raising millions from the community ONLY to simply subsidize tuition], but just going off on teachers is a waste of time. They do not run the system - the admins / boards to and they dictate policy.

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guest · 650 weeks ago

people have to start being responsible and sending where they can afford

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thatguy · 650 weeks ago

I was thinking about the possibility of doing ANY real side by side comparisons between PS and Yeshivas but it won't work. The entire economic structure is different because one is a class of school with a (near) guaranteed population and the other is a competitive entity which needs to advertise etc. Thus costs aren't line by line equatable.Every perk (be it a pension or a subsidy) becomes part of an overall financial structure and not a stand-alone which can be isolated and either compared or discarded to balance out a similarly discarded expenditure in the other system. Even within salaries, the expectations for the teachers is different in each type of school and the mode of performance expected by the teacher is distinct. Just ask any teacher who has worked in both systems. Hours, accountability, documentation and so on all differ. Not necessarily better or worse, or harder or easier, but markedly different.

You won't find any public school teacher taking advantage of tuition subsidies for a child in that public school, but you also won't find a yeshiva teacher who retires and collects a substantial pension while taking a job working select afternoon hours in a public school. Each teacher population can exploit particular advantages and is subjected to unique and exclusive disadvantages.

Maybe someone can do a comparison between a yeshiva and a private school of the same size. But even that wouldn't be comparable because admissions standards and the age/endowment of a school affect its bottom line as does the socio-religious culture surrounding the schooling and the academic approach. Maybe it shouldn't even be about comparing with anyone else and then drawing conclusions from mismatched statistics. Maybe the changes necessary in order to normalize the tuition crisis must be systemic far beyond the walls of the school -- maybe they have to demand a realignment of the priorities and expectations of the community as a whole. To this end, newer schools have attempted to address a potentially effective restructuring, but the resistance they are running into might indicate that they are looking to revamp the wrong parts of the society.

My solution? a careful mix of stakeholders, the support of the pulpits and communal leaders, the aid of forensic accountants, and a few strategically placed bitter pills. A clear list of "must haves" "wants" and "can do withouts" and near consensus buy-in with the realization that with no change the system might fall beyond a level at which it can be saved. The first item to go (IMHO)? the fine hashkafic distinctions which force us to have multiple schools which substantially overlap. The question is, what hybrid hashkafa will "win" the day? I don't know. Compromise means that everyone is equally unhappy.

I'm going to sleep.

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tesyaa · 650 weeks ago

Somehow, Orthodox Jewish families have gotten the idea that the normal laws of physics (so to speak) don't apply to them. It's obvious that private school is only affordable for the wealthy, or for middle class or striving families with only 1-2 children. For some reason OJs think that they can have 3-5 children, send them all to private school (starting at age 3!), AND live in a nice middle-class community. What solution is there other than waking up to reality?

1 reply · active 650 weeks ago

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guest · 650 weeks ago

the craziest thing is that there isnt a communal fund with universal standards to oversee scholarships. someone who cant pay tuition shouldnt get $16k tzedukkah when a $10k option is available. its insane that the people paying their own ways are the ones that take advantage of the lower price options while those receiving communal help are at the most expensive schools.

1 reply · active 650 weeks ago

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thatguy · 650 weeks ago

ok, I have been thinking about it more. Yeshivas need to stop competing so that resources can be reallocated away from marketing expenses. Along with eliminating hashkafic differences, we have to establish geographical boundaries. You get into and go to the local yeshiva. You are guaranteed admission and the school is guaranteed a population. Eliminate almost all of the money spent on advertising and public relations, create the proper tracks/programs within school with the proper staffing. Then we can start comparing yeshivas with public schools. Will this happen? Nope -- too many people want something else (more) out of the experience, including recognition and elite status. Fine. Have a magnet school (longer travel time but very selective admissions, and higher tuition, and clearly defined academic standards which, if not met, lead to expulsion. No games, no protecia). Meanwhile, the local schools will cost less, or at least the same as they do now.

True, I haven't thought through this plan. That's probably a good thing.

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guest · 650 weeks ago

bottom line if you cant pay for yeshiva for 1 yr bc of hard times thats what scholarships are for but if you will never be able to pay for yeshiva then you have to be ok with public school or move to a community you can afford. also a project ezra institution has to be in charge of all scholarships not individual schools. max you can get is 10k you can go to he atid, chabad or jfs or come up with extra money to send to one of other schools on your own.

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guest · 650 weeks ago

Capping scholarships and tzedakah is inappropriate, but I understand its practical side. If there is a family illness / death, even for just 1 or 2 years, will we CAP? If a family has one child, decides to have a 2nd, but twins are born, and they knew they were stopping after 2, are we going to save LEAVE TOWN? I know these are extreme examples, but if one thinks scholarships should be based on some excel spreadsheet with size of family, 1040s and w-2, and not case by case analysis, they are wrong. On the other hand, but for those making 300k or more, possibly a lot more, long-term solution may ONLY be public school.

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guest · 650 weeks ago

if there was a communal scholarship fund all money raised for individual schools would go to keeping tuition down for paying parents not to subsidize scholarships.

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Miami Al · 650 weeks ago

Far more reasonable, but less likely, would be to ditch this stupid K-8 model. Setup, inside the most empty during the week Shuls, a K-4 or K-6 Primary school. It would be communally funded, but lower administrative costs. The Shuls already have the ability to run Payroll, they have Rabbi, and the Hashkafa can match the Shul's Hashkafa.

You don't really need extra facilities for that age, a playground for recess is probably fine, you don't really need fancy equipment for kids at that age, just physical activity.

Then move to a Junior High/High School model sharing a campus. Middle and High School age kids have similar needs for extras: gyms, band rooms, etc.

Ditch the absurdity of all these administrators, you hire teachers, they teach the kids. Elementary learning years are VERY VERY VERY important. But they aren't complicated to run/administrate.

There would be no need for busing, nearly everyone is, by definition, in walking distance.

There is probably a need for one expensive Yeshiva Prep school, but you could cut costs dramatically by this approach.

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Avi Greengart · 650 weeks ago

If we're talking elementary school, I don't understand the problem. JFS is $9K including door-to-door transportation. HeAtid is $9K with town-supplied busing for Teaneck residents. (If you can't afford $9K/year/child for private schooling and you can afford a mortgage in Teaneck, you can't actually afford that mortgage in Teaneck.)

Now, high school scares me.

1 reply · active 650 weeks ago

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guest · 650 weeks ago

TESYAA - JEC HS is not NYC or BC tuition prices, but still a hefty five figure post-tax figure, and for families with multiple tuition paying children, it may not be a piece of cake. There are families making combined income of 150k or 180k and struggling with 2-3 tuition bills...

1 reply · active 650 weeks ago

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guest · 650 weeks ago

Tesyaa - I heard some He'Atid families are telling me that the "subsidized" tuition is appreciated there but even 9k a child is still, after tax, difficult, when you have multiple tuition bills. Perhaps the community needs other alternatives?

2 replies · active 650 weeks ago

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guest · 650 weeks ago

as long as the legacy schools continue to give money out to people who will never be able to support their families in teaneck nothing will change. the people who by and large are taking advantages of low cost alternatives or even public school are full paying parents.

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guest · 650 weeks ago

I think you are on to something...PS is probably the route of the future for many "caught in the middle" full paying parents...if you make mid 100s or 200s, and more than 1 child, you are squeezed out of the system or under unrealistic financial duress that is not sustainable. Can you imagine that we live in a system where we are saying families making these kind of incomes cannot sustain themselves long term without community support?

2 replies · active 650 weeks ago

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guest · 650 weeks ago

Jewish camps perhaps instill more jewish passion and warmth aligned with our religion than schools. Should one attend ps, camps are easily affordable. I wonder if a family or organization is interested in hosting a parlor meeting for jewish families interested in considering PS?

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guest · 650 weeks ago

if you are considering sending to ps may be worth posting on teaneckshuls asking about the specific school you are considering. im sure youll be surprised to find there are more people sending then you think. i know in k in the teaneck community charter school there are 5 jewish kids in a class of 17 3 of whom go to chabad tenafly hebrew school.

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Guess my name · 650 weeks ago

I still don't understand this ps talk. I can't see any realistic shot of your kid staying religious while attending public school; it's hard enough in the yeshiva enviornment!

For those who can't afford the tuition, I feel bad, but let's face an unpleasant fact: TEANECK IS A VERY EXPENSIVE PLACE TO LIVE. I can't understand people who choose to live here, yet claim they can't afford tuition. To me, this is like living an duplex in Manhattan and then claiming you can't afford RAMAZ. Cmon now! If you can't afford it, there are many cheaper places to live! No one forces you to live here!

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naidu · 357 weeks ago

65465

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