Yeshiva Sanity: He'atid High

Wednesday, December 5, 2012

He'atid High

Now that our kids are getting a little older it's time to start worrying about high school tuition. Some of the Yeshiva high schools that draw a lot of students from Bergen County include Frisch, TABC, Maayanot & MTA. I compiled the total cost for sending a child to each of these schools for 4 years, assuming no scholarship, one-child in the family attending, fees paid on time, no dorm & no changes in the fees. Here's what it comes to:

Frisch $105,950
MTA $97,840
Ma'ayanot $85,365
TABC $88,576

Some of the critics of He'atid argue that younger children don't have the attention span to learn from a computer. I disagree. But I wonder if those critics would have the same problem with a high school that emphasized computer-based learning. I don't really get how computer based learning saves money in early childhood if you still have 2 teachers in the room but in high school there can be periods where you don't need a teacher at all.

We need someone that can get this off the ground. Help us GD!

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Happy to be saving · 642 weeks ago

I'm surprised no one has posted anything on this blog about Heichal HaTorah, a new boys Yeshiva opening up in Teaneck next fall. When a new elementary school was opening up, there was non stop chatter (and much criticism) about it, and this is flying completely under the radar. They claim that tuition will be "affordable" at $18K all in and it will likely affect enrollment at TABC. Just curious why no one is talking about it. http://heichalhatorah.org/

4 replies · active 641 weeks ago

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Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 642 weeks ago

Happy,

I never heard of it before. Thanks for sharing! I see their open house was Monday. How did it go?

1 reply · active 642 weeks ago

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Happy to be saving · 642 weeks ago

I didn't go...my kids are way too young. But maybe someone else will be able to comment about it.

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thatguy · 642 weeks ago

Does anyone actually believe that we can hand a kid a set of encyclopedias and have that replace actual inquiry in a classroom with the give and take of a teacher? Why do we think that "in high school there can be periods where you don't need a teacher at all" because of a computer. If you leave students unattended, please don't expect that the mass of them will choose to learn. No one with any experience with high school students could believe that. A few students might, some will review and most will not. That's life in high school. A non-teacher environment is a michshol. The computer model is one of the flipped classroom -- that means that the student reviews computer-instructed content at home and still has the classroom time with a teacher to practice skills or investigate ideas. And even that is limited only to particular disciplines. This idea of automated "instruction" would be as effective as sitting a high school student in front of a recording of a lecturer and expecting learning to happen.

Computers are, at best, a tool, like a textbook. Textbooks didn't outmode teachers and computers shouldn't either. Textbooks codified a body of knowledge and provided a particular presentation but didn't teach, or save the school money -- the ultimately COST the school. Computers, whether it be the initial investment, hardware upgrades, the myriad yearly licensing issues, or the hours of repeated training as the methods and apps change, are also a financial strain, not solution.

1 reply · active 642 weeks ago

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guest · 642 weeks ago

the only long term solution will be to have a critical mass attend public schools and have modern revamped talmud torah after school program accompany. every thing else is a complete waste of breath. bottom line is the money is drying up and limiting births of jewish children is not a better solution.

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JEC Parent · 642 weeks ago

A lot of Teaneck residents send their daughters to Bruriah, in Elizabeth. At the current tuition rates (assuming you're in the post-4 years building fund cost), it would be $70,050 for four years of high school. Much cheaper!

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Goin' Broke · 642 weeks ago

Where do you see the new tuition schedule for Frisch? I just see 2011-2012. Can you put links to the high school tuitions like you did for elementary school? Thanks!

1 reply · active 642 weeks ago

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Guest · 642 weeks ago

If you add building fund for 1 child in family in school, JEC / Bruriah is not significantly cheaper per year / monthly payment in comparison to some other programs locally.

The new boy's HS will be opening up at the Jewish Center.

I know some that are VERY excited to get to the 18-19k range post-tax. Wow...think about that. Parents are excited to be the guinea pigs at 18k for a new program.

Have we lost our minds?

1 reply · active 642 weeks ago

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guest · 642 weeks ago

Interesting letter in response to the Jewish Week article Yeshiva Dad posted last week about all the new low cost schools.

Cautious About New Schools
Tue, 12/04/2012
Jesse Bernstein

As an alumnus of an “established” yeshiva day school, I was interested
by your coverage of the experimental startup schools (“Lower Tuition
School Model Spawning Imitators,” Nov. 23).

While I admire the noble goal of trying to address the tuition crisis
through lower-cost education (putting more kids in classrooms, having
fewer administrators, etc.), I didn’t see any evidence cited regarding
the efficacy of the new technologies, especially in the realm of
Judaic education.

The article seemed focused on a new economic model promoted by a group
of hedge fund managers and bankers, not an academic model espoused by
leaders in the field of education or seasoned administrators.

Studies in the secular world show very mixed results from “blended
learning” (particularly with younger children), and a number of states
have begun to cut funding for online schools. On the Judaic front, the
introduction of computers is in sharp contrast to the practice of
transmitting knowledge from rabbi to student, which has sustained the
tradition for millennia.

I am all for innovation, but, models designed by financial gurus are
best suited for gambling with money, not kids. In contrast, schools
are designed to be risk averse. In fact, I applaud the incremental
strides that some existing schools are making with regard to
affordability, and those efforts should be heralded by everyone
looking to address the tuition crisis.

I am personally thankful to the day school system that over the
generations has endured far greater social and economic challenges.
Starting up new schools based on untested methods is not viable. First
off, even a hedge fund manager would not put money in an investment
strategy without a track record. Second, from an economic perspective,
adding schools only drives up total cost and puts more burden on our
communities struggling to support these vital institutions.

Ultimately we will suffer as a community if the goal of lowering costs
for today’s parents comes at the expense of the next generation of
children.

Harvard Law School,
Class of 2015

4 replies · active 641 weeks ago

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Guest · 642 weeks ago

Jesse

I find your post atrocious as it in no way addresses (but rather attempts to stymie) the efforts of those attempting to manage the exorbitant cost of school tuition for their children. These are people who don't even necessarily have the means set aside for COLLEGE. Yet, our community makes them feel completely unworthy and I would even go so far as to say unwelcome) if they choose to explore other means of educating their children - such as PUBLIC SCHOOL. Are people supposed to become financially unstable or heaven forbid, risk their health and the welfare of their families to attempt year after year to manage the unmanageable financial cost of a Jewish Day School education? Are you suggesting that these families forgo dental care? an occasional holiday? time together as a family (as meeting these costs often necessitates two parents working more than one job apiece)? The reason the new technologically blended school meetings are filled with prospective parents is that this IS AN ENORMOUS PROBLEM, not relegated to just those scraping the economic bottom, but also includes those in the 200K to 350K realm and even higher. I wish that a RABBI would get his nose out of a gemara so as to address his congregants as it pertains to this issue of affordability. I suspect that one of the reasons Rabbis have for the most part remained silent is that they are "in bed with the system". The Rabbis are potential losers should the system (available community schooling options) shift from the standard modern orthodox Yeshiva to either a blended learning and/or Public Schools and Charter Schools. They will lose income, places at the Yeshivot unless they can pay the tuition, ....

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Sora · 642 weeks ago

In addition - most of what he writes is irrelevant - He'atid, for instance, is not an 'online' school. And the computers are not taking the place of interaction or transmission of knowledge between teacher and student - he'atid for instance is designed for teachers and students to work much more closely in a smaller student to teacher ratio than the existing schools. And other studies have shown that blended, differentiated learning schools have been extremely successful. Perhaps the article did not do a good job of explaining how and what the schools teach. People who have attended, for instance the he'tid open house or the WTA open house and have visited He'atid do gain an understanding of what the school is and how it plans on educating its students.

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Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 642 weeks ago

From the letter to the JW:

"The article seemed focused on a new economic model promoted by a group of hedge fund managers and bankers, not an academic model espoused by leaders in the field of education or seasoned administrators." A lot of experienced educational consultants involved

"...in sharp contrast to the practice of transmitting knowledge from rabbi to student" No one is suggesting eliminating Rabbis.

"Starting up new schools based on untested methods is not viable." So how do you propose testing them?

"First off, even a hedge fund manager would not put money in an investment strategy without a track record." So everyone who invested in personal computers in the 70's was a fool because at that point they hadn't been proven?

"Class of 2015" Talk to me when you have 3 kids in Yeshiva and a $60,000 bill.

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guest · 642 weeks ago

i think the gist of the letter is saying, why are we throwing millions towards a new unproven method. The community as a whole should be committed to working with the current options.

Rabbi's should stand up in shul and tell their congregants to keep their tzedaka money local and in the school system. Unfortunately, somewhere along the line the tides have turned and Yeshiva education had dropped off of everyone's list.

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Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 642 weeks ago

I think all the RCBC Rabbis spoke out strongly in favor of donating to NNJKIDS which in turn gives to all the local schools. It's not the Rabbis' fault. We just didn't give that much. Anyone looking for an end of the year tax-deduction should go to http://www.nnjkids.org/

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Guest · 642 weeks ago

Yeshiva Dad

Well of course the Rabbeim favor donations to the NNJKIDS which give to the local schools.... If people are having difficulty paying for their own childrens' schooling, where exactly do people pull money from to donate to NNJKIDS? This is the gist of the problem - and the Rabbis don't seem to understand it. There is simply no more money in the pot. Period. The money that was there 20, 15, and even 10 years ago is simply no longer flowing in and as such, a new understanding of what it means to raise an observant family must be given credibility. I don't know ONE family that is able to send their children to Day school and camp in the summer (one seems to require the other because the first requires two parents to work full time) without either substantial scholarship money OR substantial parental/grandparent funding. END OF STORY. These are all families with high levels of education and professional jobs. It is simply that the cost of living today - across the board.

1 reply · active 642 weeks ago

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Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 642 weeks ago

Guest,

I feel your pain but there ARE people in our community with money. Perhaps not in your neighborhood and among your friends. The point of NNJKIDS is to try & get those of us who are well off to give their tzedakka money to our schools & not to other worthwhile causes in other places. And the money donated to our schools should go towards defraying operating expenses so tuition can be lowered, not to an unnecessary capital project that has the donors name emblazoned on it.

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Sora · 642 weeks ago

YD - has NNJKIDS shown results? How much are parents saving? I think the way it was supposed to work might have helped but in actuality it is not a solution to the tuition problem

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Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 642 weeks ago

Sora,

Yes, take a look at your bill. There's a reduction there from NNJKIDS. I think it's about $300 per student. Of course the more donated the larger that will be. There are no overhead costs.

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guest · 642 weeks ago

Sora,

Despite rising costs of good, schools have kept tuition flat and or lowered tuition over the past 3-4 years. I'd say that NNJKIDS has definitely helped the schools to do this.

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Sora · 642 weeks ago

ok but i think the argument would be that the larger donations are not coming in and $300 per student with a $15k (or maybe more) tuition bill is nice but is not going to solve the tuition crisis - or that if it is, it is going to take a while for the donations to increase enough for it to make a big enough difference

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Sora · 642 weeks ago

to be clear - i am not knocking NNJKids at all - it is a great step and a help. It just doesn't solve the problem on its own

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Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 642 weeks ago

Sora,

No question its not a solution by itself but if we really have a crisis on our hands we have to take an all-in approach working on both the revenue and expense sides. Nothing should be off the table.

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Sora · 642 weeks ago

YD - certainly - but if this is all community leaders are offering, then it seems there is a place for Guest 36 minutes ago's frustration -

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Goin' Broke · 642 weeks ago

Has anyone even tried to calculate how much money you'd need in donations to "solve" the tuition crisis permanently? The size of an endowment just for one school? All the local schools?

My feeling is that it's much, much more money than can ever possibly be raised.

It gets to a broader issue of whether the pot of money for donations and paying for tuition is growing or shrinking. The current economic downturn is one thing, but as a whole, I'd say the pot is shrinking.

2 replies · active 641 weeks ago

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guest · 642 weeks ago

pot is shrinking. In the late 90s or even 2000-2006, salaries and bonuses in many industries were beyond imaginable. If many people in town were "mid-size accountants" making 85k, fine, we have many hedge fun, tech people and other professionals getting high 6 figure or 7 figure bonuses, let alone salary. That pool of salaries / bonuses like that have changed. Corroboration, but for the very top tier at top in industry are just not paying those level salaries.

Add that with the cost index for taxes, gas, food, etc. sky rocketing, that 85k accountant in 2000, now making 105 was better off in 2000 making 85!!!

I wonder how many new families are really considering TPS for next year. I know many are, but i truly wonder what the REAL number is at this time.

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guest · 642 weeks ago

as a parent with one child in a local legacy and one in the teaneck community charter school i have to say i am very impressed with the level of education in the charter school. i was extrememly unsure about our decision to send to the charter school but so far it has been wonderful. If you are even remotely considering it please fill out an application the lottery is in less than a month. applications can be found at tccsnj.org. There are other orthodox children in the school and we are beginning a kosher lunch program next month. as far as what we are doing for judaic studies at the moment we are sending to chabad in tenafly for hebrew school supplimented with a private tutor supplimented by my husband actually spending quality time learning with my son.

2 replies · active 641 weeks ago

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guest · 642 weeks ago

no social implications at all. we figured it was only K and if we werent happy we'd put him in a yeshiva for 1st grade and have saved $15k. In the end we are thrilled he is thriving snd there are more jewish kids then we thought. He has 17 kids in his class 5 are jewish. His teacher is jewish and teaches about all the jewish holidays. she personally bought an oven and a microwave for the class so every thing they cook is kosher dairy. All food that comes in for parties is kosher too. My son is really good at math and they have a special program that starts in 3rd grade called STEMS which stands for Science, Technology, Engineering and Math. In this STEMS program children build robotic arms, design computer games, build hearts etc. In contrast my older child in yeshiva barely has any science at all and has no concept of geography. My son in k knows all the continents and can locate all the states on a map while my older daughter has no clue. I think people arent sending because they are scared of the unknown and are worried they will lose friends.

4 replies · active 642 weeks ago

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guest · 642 weeks ago

Learning with your child is amazing. Having a rebbie / morah tutor for your child is also amazing. Doing both is special. Question is if ENOUGH people take these things seriously, in yeshiva or public school and if not, i could understand why people think they must commit financial suicide, because they know they wont instill yiddishkiet in their child privately. We have time for football games, we have time to blog, we have time to bitch about costs...we could find time for bonding with our children and doing productive things with them - don't expect a "jewish" atmosphere in TPS or TCCS, but expect respect and accommodations as needed. the TPS even has a KOSHER lunch program with EJs.

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guest · 642 weeks ago

just to make it clear the k head teacher is not the only jewish teacher in tccs. the entire school is extremely sensitive to kashrus and our religious needs. At every school function they make sure to have kosher food available for the jewish parents. class pictures were originally schedules on last days of sukkos they found out that my son could not make it and rescheduled the entire school. My son's teacher just emailed me that she is cooking latkes with the kids next week and asked if i was interested in helping out, lighting candles and reading a chanukah story to the class. Bottom Line is I have to drive him to chabad hebrew school every sunday and to Maayanot for tutoring every wednesday and my husband has to make time to learn with him a few times a week. I recognize that he is only in K but for now it is working out and we will re evaluate each year. Ejs will be delivering lunch to the kosher students in the charter school starting next month.

1 reply · active 641 weeks ago

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guest · 642 weeks ago

i would prefer my legacy child actually have science and social studies and cut out some "ruach" time.

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guest · 642 weeks ago

can any one explain why so many people were willing to sign up for the hebrew charter school which was only going to teach hebrew language but are unwilling to look at the teaneck charter school or the regular public schools?

2 replies · active 642 weeks ago

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guest · 642 weeks ago

The answer is a hebrew charter. It's not perfect but more perfect than plain PS and a good middle ground. It's working in florida and the ben gamla network is now expanding outside of FL. It's a complete shame it didn't happen in BC.

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guest · 642 weeks ago

how can we get the ben gamla network to expand here?

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Guest · 642 weeks ago

Talk to Peter Deutsch. If enough people approach him to show interest, perhaps they will be willing. The Mormon's are already doing it successfully. Check out this article. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765603214/Hebr...

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Simcha · 642 weeks ago

Let's get back to the topic of this post. GD plans on starting a hight school at $10k or less. The only problem is that he wants to start a GIRLS high school and I have boys!

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Guest · 642 weeks ago

why is GD doing this just for gals? I know he has daughters, but if part of the problem is that we have TOO many institutions in town, which have too many additional layers of cost, why dont we just have same "organization" set up a HS, and have a boys division and a gals division if it must be unisex - ala JEC / Bruriah or MTA / Central. The layers of having Maayanot / TABC, for example, next to each other, but with no unified system in place for many administrative tasks probably drives up tuition.

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Teaneck Forever · 642 weeks ago

I don't believe GD is starting a HS for girls... on any yeshiva for that matter. Anyone who has looked at the books of heatid can see one thing very plainly: the model only works because there is a larger student to teacher ratio, and that it exists on hefty contributions. If either of these metrics change, or they actually decide to buy a building (like every other school), you can say goodbye to their tuition structure. Staring a HS without millions of dollars is essentially impossible; this is not the cut rate little kids in a small area. I would be willing to bet $10,000 vs. anyone's $1000 that no "chevy" HS gets built in the next five years.

Any takers?

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Alexis · 642 weeks ago

I have to point out that someone did start a "largely-online" and very-low-cost High School in the New Brunswick & Edison area. From what I hear, it unfortunately is not doing very well, in the sense that many of the students from its first year (last year) did not return.

That is not at all to say it can't be done. I believe it can. Only that doing it is not necesarilly easy.

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guest · 641 weeks ago

BTW, speaking to some parents at He'Atid have told me the "differentiated learning" format is a great "talking point" but in reality, very difficult with high student - teacher ration and teachers are struggling with it, be it dealing with the gifted / enriched crowd or the few that need some extra attention. If they cannot handle that at preschool level, what will they do for middle school or high school?

1 reply · active 641 weeks ago

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Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 641 weeks ago

guest,

That story doesn't pass the smell test. Student-teacher ratios are about the same in He'atid as every other school. And how much "enrichment" do other schools have for pre-school/1st grade?

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guest · 641 weeks ago

YD - i have proof. I know of specific examples. However, it is not my desire nor wishes to out the specifics. I will not talk specific examples because families asked for privacy and with relatively small school, people could guess individuals involved. Furthermore, I have NO desire to wish the administration, the school or these families any harm - just a fact of what is going on behind the scenes.

Ever hear of the 80/20 rule with HR / PAYROLL concerns - similar concerns exist at school for the time required for gifted / challenged children. Those with concerns, from what i hear are mostly considering BPY and Yavnah as alternatives.

1 reply · active 641 weeks ago

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Joe · 641 weeks ago

Hey Teaneck forever, Are you the same guy who used to post on Chump's blog that GD would never get HeAtid off the ground? Show me one other Yeshiva day school tha ever had 200 kids registered for year 2! I'd bet my life savings on GD getting a HS started. People like you just talk, GD actually gets stuff done.

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Itstheeconomystupid · 641 weeks ago

A home-based, after public school, 'Digital Yeshiva' might be a good replacement to the older Talmud Torah model. There are several home schooling programs that are effective models to emulate. In fact, my last few classes have been exclusively on-line, and if done well, can be a low-cost alternative to tens of thousands of dollars of tuition debt and stress-filled years near bankruptcy.

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Avi · 641 weeks ago

Guest - 10 hours ago - funny considering almost all the kids going this year are returning to He'atid next year. Those concerns about blended learning at He'atid must be pretty major! (not)

1 reply · active 641 weeks ago

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Avi · 641 weeks ago

Guest - 10 hours ago - Yavneh and BPY have specific programs for gifted students where students spend 80%! of their time having the education catered to their gifted needs and have their own personal teachers who spend 80%! of their time catering to those gifted needs? Please tell me more as I have never heard of those classes.

If a parent has a child whose remedial needs are so great, He'atid might not be for them. But this is the same at any school - many children have left YNJ or Noam for the Gesher program at Moriah or the special T class at Yavneh. And children have left Moriah and Yavneh and other schools to attend the Sinai program. As was written on Chump blog and now apparently here, the fallacy that one school can serve EVERY type of student is true for ALL schools - not just He'atid. He'atid's range of who it can reach in the classroom is much greater than other schools who do not use differentiated learning.

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Anonymous · 641 weeks ago

Avi - I understand your enthusiasm for He'atid and am glad that you are happy with the school but I wonder how you can claim anything about what He'atid can or can't do based on 2 months of experience. There is little to no empirical evidence that blended learning provides a better education in pre-school. There are spot examples of schools who have success and examples where it is not yet showing results. Perhaps this evidence will come over time but it simply doesn't exist today in any controlled fashion. If you send to He'atid because it is cheaper or if you send because you like the school's approach, that is wonderful. But to claim anything about results seems a bit early - don't you think?

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Sora · 641 weeks ago

well Anonymous - the poster above seemed clear on what He'atid couldnt' do -" in reality, differentiated learning is very difficult with high student - teacher ration and teachers are struggling with it, be it dealing with the gifted / enriched crowd or the few that need some extra attention. that they couldn't service"
to claim any results is a bit early, dont you think?

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guest · 641 weeks ago

he didn't claim they can't do it - he says they are struggling at this point.

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Sora · 641 weeks ago

come on - struggling as in can't - he pointed out that is why parents are looking elsewhere. to my knowledge - i have a kid in the school and have obviously classrooms full of fellow parents who i have spoken to, it isn't true anyway. So by commenting on it and repeating what he wrote, i am just passing on non truths.

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End Welfare · 641 weeks ago

For what it's worth, I can confirm that there are at least several families in the Teaneck area that have decided to have additional children as a DIRECT result of Heatid. Some of these wives are already pregnant. I wonder what it's like to be GD and to be able to take direct credit for more Jewish children being brought into the world. I envy GD's share of Olam HaBah.

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