Tuesday, December 18, 2012

How Much Should Be Spent on Security?

In the wake of the horrible tragedy in Connecticut there's been a lot of talk about making schools safer.  I think some good suggestions that aren't crazy expensive include having every classroom door have a lock on it, having shades on all windows and the classroom door window, and having emergency pull stations in every classroom that automatically calls the police & sets of an alarm to alert everyone in the building.

There have also been some absurd suggestions, like having every kindergarten teacher come to class with a loaded gun every day.

The real question is do we spend the money to fully secure the building against a crazed armed gunman.  My answer is no.  It is simply not practical.  A crazed gunman can simply shoot a guard and shoot glass to get in.  To really secure a building you would need multiple highly trained armed guards.

Even with emotions running high we must think rationally.  Can we really protect ourselves 100% against every potential danger?  Sometimes it's just up to the man upstairs.

There's been some criticism about schools charging a "security fee" along with other junk fees.  Personally I think it's good that this cost is broken out separately from tuition and other expenses.  I think parents are more willing to pay extra if they know the money is being used to keep their kids safe.  If it's just built into regular tuition parents might assume the money is going towards superfluous administration, assistant teachers or extra-curricular programs.

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End Welfare's avatar

End Welfare · 640 weeks ago

"A crazed gunman can simply shoot a guard and shoot glass to get in. To really secure a building you would need multiple highly trained armed guards."

I was saying the exact same thing to someone last night. Those who think their kids are safer because some older guy is sitting at the front desk with a handgun are deluding themselves. It is all a waste of money unless you are going to invest in paying 5 or 6 heavily-armed ppl to guard your kids' school (and even then there are no guarantees). In other words, you simply aren't getting bang for your buck with your "security fee" imho.
For once I completely agree with you.

no way to truly protect against crazy people set on killing.
Also a Guest's avatar

Also a Guest · 640 weeks ago

Sorry for the upcoming long post...I am heartbroken, disgusted, and horrified by the recent unspeakable mass murder in CT. Teachers, children- all innocent people...there are no words. As a kindergarten teacher (and just as a person!!!) I share in the sadness, shock, and anger you're all feeling....

However, I do want to say this. And I'm sure it will ruffle some feathers. But do allow me to say this: if anyone is gonna argue for/against/etc. gun control, mental health, or any other issue. Please know your facts and have your information straight. We're all upset and emotionally affected by this massacre, but facts are still facts: Connecticut HAS strong gun control laws. Criminals will still find a way to purchase guns. Gun violence is not committed using legal guns. It sounds cliche, but "guns don't kill people; people do." You can tighten up gun laws all you want, that will not stop violence and will only make it harder for citizens to protect themselves, their families, and their communities. Connecticut allows Concealed Carry- just not in school-buildings. Many people believe, and are now saying, that had the teachers been allowed their Concealed Carry at work (in school) this could have been stopped/lessened. And no, this doesn't mean "everyone walks around with guns strapped to them"- look up the law before you argue. (And by no means am I saying that god forbid anyone is at fault for not stopping him, etc...) We have enough laws, we need to worry about ENFORCING them. The issue isn't the tool used to commit this horrific crime, it's the disturbed, sick, inhumane individual. And yes, you may argue back with: "Well, saying that 'sickos will still get guns so we don't need gun laws' is like saying 'people will still commit crimes, so why bother having police officers?' Or 'why have DWI laws? People are still going to get boozed up and get behind the wheel!" which is not what I'm saying, but FACTUALLY, cities and states with the toughest gun laws, tend to have higher violent-crime rates. I'm sorry, but I stand with those who agree that this is not a "gun-control" issue. I think this discussion is far from over, there are many, many implications, etc. and sadly- every time a tragedy like this strikes, gun-laws become the "hot topic", and then the issue goes away for a little while, then comes back, then goes away, then comes back. Again, I think we have enough laws, we need to enforce them better....And and wow I hate to say this out loud, but I think that a person on this kind of "mission" is, sadly, unstoppable...Take away guns, so he would have strapped a bomb to himself...I mean (disgustingly in this case) where there's a will there's a way. This guy had pathway- then warning- behavior that wasn't addressed, dealt with, recognized, I don't know the story- no one does- but obviously this was planned. It was calculated. And I don't think anything would have stopped him...Now they're saying why did the mother have military-grade weapons if she wasn't a shooter or hunter- they're asking why did she not have just your "basic" pistol/s, so that the magazines would kill less people... It's just so awful. Now they're saying that the mother was a frequent drinker, "hid" info on her life (which fine, we all have "secrets") about her son, and now everyone is questioning WHY, if she had a mentally-ill son, were there guns in the house...Of course I"m not BLAMING her...but there is a lot more to this story and people linked to it/him, and I'm sure we'll all be shaking our heads in the next few weeks....So now guns are being blamed, mental-health issues are being questioned/blamed, and the mother's behavior is being dug into and scrutinized....So awful as they began burying the kids today...*sigh* there are plenty of mentally-ill people who don't go shooting up schools....or movie theaters...or become snipers...It's very interesting how the human mind works and how the FEEL of security doesn't really change the fact that an area is/isn't secure....Seeing a security guard at a school is great- you feel safe, someone is there to protect you, etc. which is all wonderful, however in reality- and sadly- I agree that if someone wants to get in, they'll get in. Again, I"m not saying forget locking doors or not take any measures; of course not- but I think that some sad truths/realities must be understood.
i think a bomb is much more likely in a yeshiva and an untrained old man sitting by the door is not going to do any thing. our security guards are more like doormen than police officers.
How much is the elder fellow at Yavnah paid? How much is the person standing by the door on PTC night at YNJ paid? I think some are more "doorman" / directors than meant to deter a gunman, terrorist, etc. However, I think it is nice when you enter a building someone signs you in, directs you to your destination, etc. It is a hybrid of "security" and doorman, but not security in the sense of stop a gunman or bomb threat. It is more like, make sure doors are locked / secure. Make sure a 4 year old does not wonder out of the building.
1 reply · active 640 weeks ago
I think they are there more to deal with unruly kids or escorting an angry parent or employee out of the building. They are certainly not equipped to deal with an armed gunman.
Anonymous's avatar

Anonymous · 640 weeks ago

I think it is a bit unwise to discuss and debate the security arrangements of our various schools on a public website. I would note to the last point that most of the schools (whether publicized or not) are using professional security organizations and that a number of the individuals referenced above are armed former law enforcement professionals. Beyond that point if you have a question or concern, you should really direct it to you child's school.
End Welfare's avatar

End Welfare · 640 weeks ago

"I think it is a bit unwise to discuss and debate the security arrangements of our various schools on a public website."

You probably also are the one that thought it was unwise to discuss the excess admins' salaries and thought that we should all contact our schools directly about that issue as well. Good thing nobody listened to legacy ppl like you or our community wouldn't be blessed with Heatid.
Anonymous's avatar

Anonymous · 640 weeks ago

End Welfare - your response speaks volumes about your mindset. I only care about the safety of my children. You seem to have a different agenda.
End Welfare's avatar

End Welfare · 640 weeks ago

"End Welfare - your response speaks volumes about your mindset. I only care about the safety of my children. You seem to have a different agenda."

Right. And I put your children at risk by saying some schools have old geezers sitting by the front desk half-asleep with some ghetto handgun that couldn't kill a squirrel, let alone a heavily armed psycho with a sub-machine gun.
Anonymous's avatar

Anonymous · 640 weeks ago

wow. is that the official position of heatid or just the perspective of heatid parents like yourself.
End Welfare's avatar

End Welfare · 640 weeks ago

"wow. is that the official position of heatid or just the perspective of heatid parents like yourself."

I have absolutely nothing to do with Heatid on any level. I do have an axe to grind with the legacy schools though for ripping off no fewer than two to three generations of Jews in bergen county.
1 reply · active 640 weeks ago
How were/are they ripping anyone off. I still don't get this. Please explain.
Anonymous's avatar

Anonymous · 640 weeks ago

guest - end welfare is a victim. he blames all his problems on everyone else.
ahavat chesed's avatar

ahavat chesed · 640 weeks ago

Everyone knows that "End Welfare" (who used to post extensively on Chump's ragsheet) is essentially a troll. Just ignore him.
End Welfare's avatar

End Welfare · 640 weeks ago

Right. You must be a "troll" if you think the legacy yeshivas are ripoffs........
Why would anyone not wonder if the Legacy Yeshivot are a rip off? How do they compare academically with their non religious schools? That they have a double curriculum is debatable, as the actual time they spend studying those subjects really doesn't amount to "double". I think the issue is quality of secular academics and if this is of any concern to parents that have to scrape by monthly to pay the tuition, then I would agree that for many families, the Legacies are ripoffs.
any one who feels that the yeshivot are rip offs or isnt happy with the quality of the secular education should seriously take a look at the public schools. they may just be very pleasantly surprised.
Teaneck Forever's avatar

Teaneck Forever · 640 weeks ago

Guys, if you really feel that yeshivas are a rip off, then why do you send your kids there? Send them to glorious Teaneck High. Don't pay higher prices for kosher food. Don't pay shul dues, use your money to go to football games in club seats. And why pay "ripoff" property taxes in Teaneck? Just move to a smaller BC town like Bogota or Ridgefield Park. Then you can take your whining to the school boards there when you feel your kid is not being educated properly.

No one is stopping you. Stop bitching and just leave! Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
you can still keep kosher and shabbos and send to public school. teaneck forevers response is extremely rude. there are many frum kids in the teaneck public school system and the education is actually very good. Im sure teaneck forever never even looked at the public school and is speaking from ignorance.
Teaneck Forever probably has parents paying for his tuition and camp and bar/bat mitzvah and bit of money here and there and has never really experienced the full financial load of what legacy school means over the long haul. Most ortho families I meet are somewhere on that spectrum.

We send our kids to public school and are very happy. I wish others would consider it as an option.
As a public school parent in Teaneck and one who was actively commented on Chumps Blog, i personally do not believe the legacy schools are ripoffs. I just think they are not sustainable or reasonably affordable for a significant majority. Furthermore, I strongly believe that people would be shocked by the quality of the materials / academics / certified teachers at TPS. Finally, property taxes, if one chooses to live here is a REQUIREMENT. [one can buy a smaller / cheaper home and lower that bill, but how much?] Kosher food costs is a REQUIREMENT. [one can go out less, make chicken over roasts for shabbos and mitigate these costs] However, there are alternatives to YESHIVA costs. Be it hiring a Jewish tutor, parent learning with child, hebrew schools and other opportunities exist for Jewish side of things. NCSY for middle school and HS. One cannot say something is a ripoff if one voluntarily chooses to go do it. I hate when someone says my "disney tickets were over 80 bucks a day per person"...Did anyone force you to go to disney? Mini-golf, 2 days sitting on the beach, bowling, roller skating and many other activities can be done over yeshiva break without reaching the cost for ONE day at DISNEY or ATLANTIS. People need to decide for themselves what they can afford, but if you sign-up for something voluntarily, where alternatives exist, dont call it a ripoff.
When i signed my kid up for yeshiva I knew that it would be expensive and that it would not be on the same academic level as public school.

If I wanted an excellent public school education, I'd move to tenafly and call it a day.

I don't get this "ripoff"

signing your kid up at yeshiva and comparing it to public school is like saying "i went to the store to but an apple, and what i got was an apple - damn store ripped me off because i really wanted an orange! "

let's stop whining already.
Very well said guest of 48 minutes ago. Like I said 54 minutes ago, you, as the consumer are choosing this and if you want to continue to choose this, great. if not, go to the "store" and choose a different item and there are many items to choose from.
sending to yeshiva is great but not if its done out of resentment and fear. if the only reason you are sending your kids to yeshiva is because you are afraid of what people will think if you send to public school that is just ridiculous. Yeshivas are a rip off if you want is a solid secular education and believe you can suplement the judaics with after school/ tutoring programs.

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