Yeshiva Sanity: Rabbi Discount

Tuesday, April 9, 2013

Rabbi Discount

Sources tell me that pulpit and teaching Rabbis get special tuition discounts at many of the local day schools. Not just Rabbis who work at the school in question. And not just Rabbis who go through the scholarship process and are found to qualify for such a scholarship.

Some Rabbis are well compensated and don't need the discount any more than the rest of us. My only guess as to why they have this discount is to get a rabbinic endorsement of the school.

I have two problems with it. One is that a discount for one person increases the burden for everyone else. The other problem is that Rabbis are in a position to advocate for change to the tuition crisis. If they don't feel the full brunt of the problem they are less likely to endorse solutions.

Thoughts?

Comments (76)

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Parent · 624 weeks ago

I believe that many schools allow you to direct some of your salary towards a different school - pre-tax. Apparently this is legal. Maybe this is what is going on.

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Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 624 weeks ago

I think that's called "parsonage." This is an actual discount on top of that.

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Teacher99 · 624 weeks ago

So what? Teachers are ridiculously underpaid as it is. Just compare the salaries in TPS to yeshivas; it's scary!

Many shul rabbis work 24/6. I do agree if someone is being paid an above average salary, they dont need a break, but that's not the situation in most cases.

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guest whom · 624 weeks ago

This is NOT parsonage. This is not qualified tuition redirection or reduction (pretax). This is not a reduction for teachers on the staff of that or any other yeshiva. This is simply a rabbinical discount which operates both as a courtesy to those who enter the clergy and as a vestige of the days when pulpit rabbis or those who learned massive amounts of time could barely afford to send their kids to yeshiva.

Those days are over -- simply getting smicha (and trust me, I have fought the fight with schools, explaining that rabbis no longer need it and others need it more, like pre-school teachers) should NOT qualify someone for a courtesy discount. It is a sexist and ignorant gift masquerading as a chesed.

1 reply · active 624 weeks ago

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End Welfare · 624 weeks ago

Teachers only work 9 months out of the year (I'm not even backing out all the Jewish holidays during this 9 month period). I actually think they get paid fairly l for the 9 months that they work. Notice I said they get paid "fairly" - I do not think they are overcompensated, but I also don't think they are underpaid.

2 replies · active 624 weeks ago

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Miamial · 624 weeks ago

It's bad economics. If Rabbi X works for Shul Y, then Shul Y needs to pay its Rabbi enough to support him. It is unreasonable that the members of Shul Y receive a discount in Shul dues so that the parents at Yeshiva Z can underwrite their Rabbi's salary.

It also misaligns the economics of the community. The Rabbinic leadership truly has no concept of how squeezed their upper middle class has gotten. They interact, outside of personal friendships, primarily with two groups, the big donor families that are doing fine (or their problems are independent of school tuition), and families with problems, who are likely disasters but receive financial aid.

I don't think they have any concept of how tough it is and how trapped a segment of the community is... unable to get ahead financially because of huge costs, unable to slow down and spend any time on their life to keep their head above water.

But according to the OU, these parents (people like you) are the reason that 50% of MO School Graduates aren't frum two years out, it's never the school, it's the parents fault.

3 replies · active 624 weeks ago

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first time poster · 624 weeks ago

From a macro level, this is counter productive. However, when a school makes such a decision, they are looking at their bottom line and the welfare of their own parent body. If giving a pulpit Rabbi a discount attracts them to the school, which in turn attracts shul member to the school, the increased tuition received helps the bottom line which helps reduce tuition for the school. Like paying money for a celebrity endorsement which in the long term has an ROI.

The loser is the school that all these kids do not go to.

So the only way to change it is if all schools agree. Otherwise, the one school that does not do it has no Rabbi's kids which affects their image. I don't see that happening.

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GUEST 3 · 624 weeks ago

I know YNJ gives this discount. I do not know of any other school. Does anyone know of any other schools that do this?

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west · 624 weeks ago

I know that a school in Westchester used to offer a huge discount to every Rabbi in the community (which included both pulpit Rabbis and Rabbis who teach in high schools, etc.) and then recently cut back to a much lower (but still substantial) discount

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anonymous · 624 weeks ago

Yeshiva -- I suggest you try dedicating your life to community service before taking shots as those who do. You should be ashamed of yourself.

1 reply · active 624 weeks ago

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Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 624 weeks ago

anonymous,

I disagree with this policy. I haven't taken shots at anyone (at least not in this post)

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Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 624 weeks ago

By the way, I have a rule that you can't use the screen name "anonymous" or "guest". Too many people use it & it makes the conversation confusing. Please change it for the future.

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Isaac Shalev · 624 weeks ago

It's a little bit crazy to complain about the high cost of Orthodox life when you're a high-paid professional, and then to complain that rabbis and teachers who earn significantly less shouldn't receive discounts. Put it another way: if you want your children to be taught by qualified teachers, you need to compensate those teachers. Institutions like schools and shuls, workign in tandem to offer mutual benefits to each other's staff and clergy is a sound approach to both community-building and financial policy.

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Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 624 weeks ago

Isaac,

There are pulpit rabbis that make much more than I do. If they can't pay full tuition they can go through the scholarship process like everyone else.

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guest whom · 624 weeks ago

Just a note -- though I feel that the rabbinic discount is unfair and outdated, I don't think that the other financial variables (teacher pay) mitigate the situation. Teachers (as was stated above) work 8-10 hours a day and are MA level much of the time. If you want to argue that teachers in yeshivas get paid too much, the first thing to do would be to compare them to published pay scales in public schools (which have more days, but fewer hours and certainly fewer preps, and often union protection and/or tenure, plus pension). Yeshiva teachers of comparable backgrounds and course loads get paid less than public school teachers.

And as to the statement that pulpit rabbis know 2 groups, rich people and problem people, that may be true in certain communities, but I know it is not true in others. So I would caution against generalized statements.

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Wondering · 624 weeks ago

Since this topic has elicited some strong responses I have to wonder how much do people really believe is being given out. How many pulpit Rabbis are there out there that are getting this benefit? If I look around Teaneck / Bergenfield it would seem that many of them don't have children in elementary school and some not even in high school. Also, how much of a discount do you believe they are receiving that would drive so much concern? Is it so hard to believe that some Rabbis even turn down this benefit if they are financially able? Would appear to be a tempest in a teapot or just some angry people who have issues with their Rabbis.

1 reply · active 624 weeks ago

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Wondering · 624 weeks ago

So your real issue is with the Rabbis making over $200,000 who send their kids to a school other than the one they run? Do you even need both hands to count how many of these there are?

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Also Wondering · 624 weeks ago

I was "wondering" the same thing. Sounds like a bunch of bitter people who have nothing better to do than complain about the world not being fair.

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Frank Incensed · 624 weeks ago

It isn't just pulpit. And it is 11% at at least 1 school.

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Wondering · 624 weeks ago

11% of what? Of families? Of students? Of tuition? Is this the discount they receive?

1 reply · active 624 weeks ago

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Also Wondering · 624 weeks ago

Don't waste your time on this blog. It sounds like. a bunch of bitter people who don't have any facts, but want to criticize the schools that have been educating our kids for generations. Already one of their schools has failed.

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Orthowatch · 624 weeks ago

I don't have an issue with someone who works as a Rebbe in a yeshiva getting a discount for his kids. One of the complaints I've heard over and over again is that so many of the Rabbeim in our schools are from Lakewood or other chareidi areas, instead of MO people. When tuition is sky-high and Rabbeim get paid next to nothing, why would a MO person go into chinuch? Giving that discount will encourage MO people to become Rabbeim in our schools instead of chareidim.

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Buster · 624 weeks ago

I don't have a problem with a pulpit rabbi receiving a slight discount at a yeshiva. I know for fact the rabbi of my shul doesn't make that much, but is on call 24/7. He works another job as well to support his family.

maybe the rabbi's at the huge shuls around are doing very well salary wise, but please dont assume the same about the many many smaller shuls.

3 replies · active 624 weeks ago

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End Welfare · 624 weeks ago

Why don't the hardworking bankers/lawyers/doctors of our community who work the long days and pay full tuition and who get screwed by the tax code (AMT anyone?) get some breaks every now and then. The yeshiva tuition system and tax code both punish hard work. It's a damn shame.

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Teacher99 · 624 weeks ago

End Welfare: "Why don't the hardworking bankers/lawyers/doctors of our community who work the long days and pay full tuition and who get screwed by the tax code (AMT anyone?) get some breaks every now and then."

They already did. It's called "the Bush tax cuts". You want to give breaks to people earning 250k or more, yet you have a problem with rabbis making a fraction of that number getting tuition breaks?

Are you kidding, or just delusional?

2 replies · active 624 weeks ago

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thatguy · 624 weeks ago

$150k? in a year? sorry, but I can't afford to feel pity. My sub 100k salary doesn't budget for that.

10 replies · active 624 weeks ago

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Enough Days off · 624 weeks ago

thatguy - in all honesty I don't know how you can even survive here in BC but not be on scholarship. I guess I don't know how many kids you have, but my tuition bill is $57K per year. My very modest mortgage and taxes are $25K per year. Food $12-15K per year, car $5K per year, camp, electricity and gas, shul, and the list goes on and on. How does one do it, even living a very frugal lifestyle, for less than $200K (which is net $140K at most)???

1 reply · active 624 weeks ago

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Mark 50p · 624 weeks ago

This conversation seems to have gone off track. The question at hand is -

Why should a certain class of people, solely by virtue of the "degree" they hold, get an automatic discount rather than go through the regular process like everyone else does?

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Wondering · 624 weeks ago

Mark - actually the conversation didn't go off track. It just go to the heart of the matter. There are many people in different situations in our community who feel that the "other guy" is getting a "break" that they are not getting and they are angry about it. It could be the Rabbis today, the chumps tomorrow, the sub-100k next week. Doesn't really matter. Just anger rather than focus on what you have to do to take of your family. But if that is what gets people through the day I guess it serves a purpose.

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End Welfare · 624 weeks ago

Rambam is very clear about his views on taking money for engaging in Torah:

One who makes up his mind to involve himself with Torah and not to work, and to support himself from charity, has profaned God’s Name and brought the Torah into contempt, extinguished the light of religion, brought evil upon himself, and has taken away his life from the World-to-Come... (Hilchos Talmud Torah 3:10)

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Wondering · 624 weeks ago

End Welfare - thanks for proving my point about angry people.

1 reply · active 624 weeks ago

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Escobar · 624 weeks ago

There should be a tuition Shmita. If you are paying full price, every seventh (or some other number) year is free.

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Also Wondering · 624 weeks ago

End Welfare: Your attitude (and misuse of the Rambam) is pathetic. We aren't talking about "kollel guys". We are talking about Rabbis who are serving the community 24/7, and getting a tuition break as a perk for community service. I, for one, am proud to help subsidize them.

I guess the low-budget school guys (some of whom skimped on education in order to spend Pesach in Florida) feel otherwise.

1 reply · active 624 weeks ago

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no scholarships · 624 weeks ago

i dont think any one should get a tuition break period. if you need help apply to project ezrah. there needs to be one community organization with one set of standards.

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End Welfare · 624 weeks ago

"They are puppets and they are tired and they seem to live in a scripted manner - rarely have I seen them take a stand re any issue."

I disagree. Our local Rabbis take stands on very important issues all the time, like issuing proclamations on quinoa for Pesach and the need to check vegetables for bugs with a UV light. These issues are far more important than the cost of Yeshiva tuition.

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Teacher99 · 624 weeks ago

End Welfare: Don't you send your precious kids to low budget heatid? If so, why do you are about this issue at all? You have already proven that all you care about is spending as little as you can for tuition.

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GUEST 3 · 624 weeks ago

Yeshiva_Dad: Kudos on your blog. I would love to see a post detailing exactly what are the scholarship thresholds for the schools. Put another way, how much does one have to make to be eligible for any kind of scholarship.

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Out of town teacher · 624 weeks ago

Teacher99. I franky find you comments offensive. I am a fellow teacher. I was privleged to be given a tour at He'Atid, as a group of teachers from an out of town school. (And before you start in- not Tiferet and not WTA). My guess is you have never once stepped inside the school. Even more offensive, from what I was told about the the diversity of the parent population of the school, there are many familes who could in fact afford to go to more expensive schools. So let me ask you, Teacher99, what do those parents care about? Would you tell them they are sending there for the "garbage" education you know little if anything about. Please stop now.

1 reply · active 624 weeks ago

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no scholarships · 624 weeks ago

end welfare he atid is not the problem. the problem is that people on scholarship arent looking at he atid because they are happy to continue sending to legacies at their "discount rates".

1 reply · active 624 weeks ago

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Enough Days off · 624 weeks ago

no scholarships is right. We were on scholarship at a BC yeshiva and changed our child to He'atid so they we would afford to pay full fare on not rely on the tzedaka of our neighbors. Of course it was a hard decision - we were very happy. But given the choice of taking tzedaka or paying our way, the answer was obvious. Yet in our community and in our old school we are vilified for going to He'atid. It's nuts. And there are plenty of people who are receiving scholarship at our former school who chose to remain.

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He'Atid Ima · 624 weeks ago

There are many parents, such as myself, at He'Atid, whose kids attend either Yavneh or YNJ- and I know for a fact that we/they *can* afford it, but chose He'Atid for whatever reasons for our PreK or Kindergartners, and are very happy with what the kids are learning, classmates, and morahs. And BTW- we are not on assistance from the other schools- we are full-paying families. Just saying....

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Wondering too · 624 weeks ago

I don't understand why heatid parents feel the need to be so critical of Rabbis and others. You are getting your own discount by sending to the school. Why criticize Rabbis or scholarship parents who are getting the same break you are?

4 replies · active 624 weeks ago

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Enough Days off · 624 weeks ago

Wondering too - on what basis do you assume that those posters are He'atid parents?? I would think just the opposite - why do HeAtid parents care if Rabbis are getting discounts at other schools anyway?? And with a $9K tuition, I don't think HeAtid parents are going to take the time to complain and argue about this - they likely don't feel as overburdened with tuition as other parents and are not as stressed and bitter.

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