Friday, September 21, 2012

Community Talmud Torah Doesn't Open

Back in January we had a guest post about an after-school Talmud Torah program that was planned to open this fall somewhere in Bergen County.  It was to serve the needs of students who attended public schools but wanted to get a Jewish studies education.  Unfortunately it did not open this year & no decision has yet been made about the future.

I still think that if a Hebrew charter school can ever get off the ground then a combined program with the Talmud Torah could be a good, relatively inexpensive alternative to the Day School system for some parents.

Gnar Chatima Tova to all!
Posted by at 9:00 AM

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guest · 653 weeks ago

I think you are definitely on to something but must consider that many would view it as a disincentive to Jewish Day School as opposed to simply another option. This is an issue that I think may be working against an opening of a Charter and Talmud Torah. Unfortunately, the potential success of these options would pose a financial threat to those who operate/benefit from the Jewish Day School tuitions.
There is a whole industry of Jewish Day school Rabbis and specialists and administrators, etc... whose livelihoods depend upon the community pressure towards paying tuition. I wonder if this plays a substantial role in the problem.

Gmar Tov
1 reply · active 653 weeks ago
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Guest1 · 653 weeks ago

The charter had kids signed up to start for 2 consecutive school years. The only thing working against it was its leadership, not the day schools.
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JS (hello) · 653 weeks ago

"I wonder if this plays a substantial role in the problem."

I don't think you need to wonder all that much.
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guest · 653 weeks ago

I was trying to be generous - I would like to believe that ethically, those involved in providing the services of a religious education (Rabbis, Jewish educators, administrators) would recognize that there are many factors at play when a family decides to pull their children out of the JDS institution/ yeshiva, while still participating as full fledged members of the Observant Jewish Community. And that the community should be supportive of any and all efforts to give those children who've been taken out of the yeshiva (for whatever reason) as much of a Jewish education as is possible. It should be considered a sin to participate in creating roadblocks to any form of a Jewish education. This should be the stand of the Rabbeim - period. Otherwise, the community begins to smell of intimidation and inappropriate measures towards their members.... and that would cross the line into (and I hate to say it much less write it) but something of a cult.
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guest · 653 weeks ago

its a real shame that the hebrew charter and community talmud torah didnt open. there is a huge need in the community for both. yeshiva tuition whether it is 10k or 16k per year per child just isnt sustainable by the community at large. The amount of people applying for scholarships continues to rise each year. There are many families that have been forced to file for bankruptcy and are now in financial ruin in large part due to tuition.
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Guest · 653 weeks ago

If Distenfeld, Fields, Flamholz or Fisher were involved, it would have gotten off the ground. It's a shame.
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Guess my name · 653 weeks ago

Lets face it. Anything other than a traditional Jewish education is doomed to failure. The religious level of these kids who attend anything other than a tradioanl yeshiva is abysmal.Yeah, we all know exceptions. So what? If you want to insure your kids marrying Jews, stay Orthodox. If you want the best shot at your kids staying religious, send them to tradional day schools. This has been proven over and over.

I agree prices are extremely high. When you factor in the cost of tuition, kosher food, property taxes, shul dues, etc, the costs are enormous. However, no one says you have to live in Teaneck. Homes are cheaper in Fair Lawn. Tuition is much cheaper in Elizabeth, Staten Island and Brooklyn. I fail to understand why people who live here complain about costs, when they could live elsewhere. It's not like costs exploded in the last few years.
2 replies · active 653 weeks ago
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guest · 653 weeks ago

You are correct! However, the problem is that many couples have already bought their houses (with enormous help from family) and it is this help that muddles the decision making process. Had these families been forced to determine their purchase options based only on their salaries then they would have been forced to consider Elizabeth, Fair Lawn, Brooklyn and Staten Island. The problem is that unless the family help continues past the down payment - these families are left with salaries that don't match the assumed earning power of those around them and this leads to lots of hand wringing later on. Today, the problem is further complicated by the fact that these families can't SELL their homes for enough to get out of their mortgages and so they are essentially STUCK. But I believe that this all comes down to an issue of entitlement. How many of our children (over age 13) are working? How many of our graduating seniors have ever held a summer job? I think these issues begin in our community at a much younger age - we are enablers in this problem rather than problem solvers.
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Teanecker Chasid · 653 weeks ago

True - an Orthodox household and traditional Jewish education can insure (i.e., help manage the risk) your kids marry Jews and stay Orthodox. It does not, however, ensure that they will. Of course, there are other significant elements that influence the outcomes e.g, our behavior as parents - do we demonstrate a love of yiddishkeit? do we learn, pioritize shul over watching football games, discuss Jewishly appropriate subjects that the shabbos tish with our children sitting with us? Do we live in and participate in our community in a way that our kids will want to replicate with their own lives? Or do we just kvetch about the rabbis and tuition, and let our kids abandon the shabbos table so we can schmooz with our adult guests?

Let's face THAT, GMN.
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anon · 653 weeks ago

Someone should contact Peter Deutsch and beg him to open ben gamla here. He is already expanding outside of florida.
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Guess my name · 653 weeks ago

I go by the Chump factor. Every plan this guy has touted (the petition, the band the parents together to force lower tution for a select few, SACS, Talmud Torah, etc. have all failed). Gebrally speaking, whatever Chump pushes, you can feel confident will fail. Doesn't exactly bode well for heatid, does it?

Of course, a close look at the numbers show exactly how they have lowered tution: 25 kids per class, nothing past first grade, no buiding fund and massive financial assistance have allowed them to open. Is this sustainable? I guess time will tell.
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End Welfare · 653 weeks ago

Hysterical! GMN brings up the name of a blog that has been gone for quite a while now in order to attack the credibility of Heatid. Just goes to show you how desperate the legacy apologists have now become. Kind of reminds me of Obama continuing to blame Bush 4 years later for all of this country's problems........
1 reply · active 653 weeks ago
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Me'ever laHudson · 653 weeks ago

Your comment is almost correct. Chump did not create the tuition crisis and in no way (especially as a the full-fare Chump) did he contribute to it. That is why GMN's screed lacks credibility. On the other hand, your analogy to BHO lacks integrity - GWB was very much an essential cause of our catastrophic economic meltdown. I hope our kids are able to hone their critical thinking skills a bit sharper than that at JDS.
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Teaneck Parent · 653 weeks ago

Guest writes,

"many couples have already bought their houses (with enormous help from family) and it is this help that muddles the decision making process. Had ... been forced to determine their purchase options based only on their salaries then they would have been forced to consider Elizabeth, Fair Lawn, Brooklyn and Staten Island. "
This is a MAJOR problem in our community. Kids are getting married while still in college and are only able to do so because they get fincancial help from their parents or grandparents.
News flash: when you get married, part of that responsibility means supporting yourselves financially. And please - spare me the "shomer negiah" excuse (why kids MUST get married so young. Most couples who claim to be shomer are not. And those who really are - congragulations. But either learn to keep it in your pants or don't get married until you can afford to do so with minimal assistance from mommy and daddy.
This lack of financial responsibility that we are nurturing helps create continued dependance on one's family that carries on throughout one's life. It's part of the problem why people continue to live beyond their means and contributes to the tuition crisis.
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Teaneck Tommy's avatar

Teaneck Tommy · 653 weeks ago

End Welfare: "Hysterical! GMN brings up the name of a blog that has been gone for quite a while now in order to attack the credibility of Heatid. Just goes to show you how desperate the legacy apologists have now become"

No, actually it's rather tragic. Chump was an extremely divisive figure here in Teaneck.[Deleted]. What's REALLY funny is how heatid apologists like you believe that Distenfeld is the messiah and how heatid will solve the world's problems. GMN is correct about the budget as far as I can tell. There are no real cost savings there, it's just cramming more kids in a class and shrorring lots of cash. I have no idea if this school will succeed or not (and neither do you), but I wouldn't be giving out awards after they have run a pre-school for a couple of weeks.
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guest's avatar

guest · 653 weeks ago

any word from raphael bachrach? any one know if charter and grant were revoked?
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End Welfare's avatar

End Welfare · 653 weeks ago

"any word from raphael bachrach? any one know if charter and grant were revoked?"

Please tell me you are joking.
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Yeshiva_Dad 69p · 653 weeks ago

He hasn't even notified the parents who were registered that they are not opening. Let alone apologize to them.
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Sora · 653 weeks ago

teaneck tommy: no question chump was divisive but he definitely woke people up. my kid has 20 kids in his k class at he'atid. two years ago my kid at a legacy school k had 23 kids in his k class. the problem with you and GMN is that your arguments are not borne out by the facts. that is why people laugh at your posts and consider you legacy school apologists. i also need to ask - you mentioned that GMN is correct about the budget as far as you can tell - is that because you actually have detailed knowledge of said budget??
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guest · 653 weeks ago

parents who were interested in sacs should consider taking a look at the teaneck community charter school (tccsnj.org). It is a k-8 school located in a state of the art building on chestnut street complete with smart boards in each classroom. Class size is limited to 17 children with 2 sections per grade. The school is very sensitive to the needs of its orthodox population and ranks very high academically. There is a lottery to get into the school which opens in november. Maybe tccs parents could work together to form an after school talmud torah since sacs is clearly not happening.
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HeAtid Fan · 653 weeks ago

Avi: Gershon plans on starting a high school for under 10k. You should speak to him.
1 reply · active 652 weeks ago
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Guest · 652 weeks ago

I'm surprised that the East Brunswick, NJ charter school doesn't come up more in these discussions. The EB charter school is in, I believe, it's 3rd year. A significant number of Orthodox kids are in the school and the parents there absolutely love it. Their kids are speaking better hebrew in 3rd grade than most of the parents. The English education is top notch and I've heard is comparable or better than any Jewish school (they're still in the younger grades so we'll see how it develops). They are also moving into a large building that will eventually house a gym amongst other large-school expectations.

The after school program for the religious students has been taken over and revamped by the Orthodox parents in the neighborhood. It's the parents taking action rather than hoping someone else takes the reins. I think the after school program runs $2,500 a year but not positive. This should be seen as a model for other communities and yet no one talks about it.

East Brunswick has numerous education options and the charter school is only one of them. The Young Israel is filled with people that use all different schools and everyone accepts each other. No judging. All friends. This is a model all communities should strive for and I encourage all those wanting more education option, start talking about the East Brunswick model. It's working better than any other community I've read or heard about.
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guest · 652 weeks ago

Guest,

Thanks so much for your post! I had no knowledge of any sort of charter or after school program in East Brunswick. This is really wonderful to to read and certainly worthy of exploring. Curious to know why the Orthodox community in East Brunswick is open to all school options while the Teaneck Ortho community seems threatened?

Is there a substantial difference in the nature of the communities?
1 reply · active 652 weeks ago
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Guest · 652 weeks ago

Yes. The East Brunswick community is very unique. It's truly a model for what a modern orthodox community should be. It's an actual community. There is one main orthodox shul. Everyone knows each other and helps each other out. The shul is the center of the community for everything and it's led by a dynamic young Rabbi. Hashkafas range from leaning right to leaning left and everything in between but no one cares. Everyone is welcome and everyone is friendly. Lots of shiurim, lots of youth programs and lots of community events. I think of it as one of the few neighborhoods that feels truly like an out-of-town community where you can still work in the city.

Teaneck and other communities in the NY/NJ area are saturated and fragmented. Very little unity because everyone is in different shuls with different goals and different lives. It just makes community initiatives more difficult to accomplish.
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guest · 652 weeks ago

Thanks for your response to my question re the East Brunswick Ortho community. Who is the Rabbi?
1 reply · active 652 weeks ago

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